HSU or SVS which should I choose? (1 Viewer)

[Edward J M]

Good post, Steve. Your experience reflects just how varied people's needs are in the bass department. For you, the STF-2 is enough sub, and that's great.

I owned an STF-2 for a while (I was considering it for an upstairs HT rig for the kiddies) and my HT room is comparable in size to yours. During my evaluation, I thought the STF-2 handled music well at reasonable volumes, but definitely couldn't handle HT at the volumes I prefer. At -15 Reference Level, it compressed peaks and noticeably struggled in the lowest octave. Its larger brother the STF-3 (which I recently reviewed along with the PB1-ISD) was much better in this regard. So the clean output levels from the PB1-ISD and the STF-3 represent the minimum standard for me personally in the HT arena. Our two opinions of the STF-2 epitomize the phrase "YMMV".

Because listening and bass tastes vary so widely, and since HT is such a demanding format, I think it's important for Dave to let us know some specifics:

- What are the room dimensions and ceiling height.

- Where will the sub be placed in the room.

- How far from the sub are the key listening positions.

- How many permanent openings are in the room, and where will the sub be located in relation to them.

- What type of DVDs and music to you like and what is the listening percentage for each.

- When calibrating for HT applications, how "hot" do you run your sub, compared to your surround channels?

- What is your typical master volume setting with respect to Reference Level (like -5RL, -10RL, -15RL) when watching DVDs.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Ed,


I have read your excellent recent review of the PB2-SD (hope I got the model number right) and frankly it was one of the reasons I suddenly became dissatisfied with my Klipsch KSW-12.

I do hope you'd agree that while the STF-2 does not meet your standards it is among the better choices at it's price point?

In other words, please tell me I didn't completely screw up?

 

[CurtisSC]

Steve,

The STF-2 may not meet Edward's standards, it is still a great subwoofer. Many folks are very happy with its performance.

I picked one up used....and in my room, it can do what my VTF-3 does except for the deepest bass.

Safe to say....for $350 new....the STF-2 is one of the best...if not the best subwoofer available.

Sure...spend more money and you can get a bigger sub. You did not screw up.

 

[Edward J M]

I agree with Curtis, and no - you didn't screw up. It's a good sub for music at moderate volumes and it goes pretty deep; it just didn't meet my clean output standards for HT, and I know the kids would have wrecked it short order on the upstairs rig. The 12" driver in the STF-3 can probably move 3X more air than the 10" driver in the STF-2.

Some of the DVDs for kids just have hellacious LFE tracks (Toy Story 2, Monster's Inc., Finding Nemo) that are brutal on subs. A single 12" unit like the PB1-ISD or the STF-3 is the minimum I can accept for HT applications. But driver technology is advancing all the time and I'm sure a high output 10" unit is just around the corner.

 

[steve nn]

But driver technology is advancing all the time and I'm sure a high output 10" unit is just around the corner.
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If I recall correctly?? Tom and Ron with SVS were going to try to make a smaller sub available some time in the future? I could have been reading between the lines and totally misunderstood what they were alluding to. But it would be another nice offering/option if one truly is slated.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

Steve,

There's always interesting things going on in the SVS R/D lab. Suffice it to say that the desire for "small subs" is not lost on SVS.

We'll see what this year brings.

Ron

 

[steve nn]

Suffice it to say that the desire for "small subs" is not lost on SVS.

We'll see what this year brings.

Ron
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Thanks Ron. It sure would be nice to see but you guys have definitely been very busy answering our wants/desires. It will be interesting to see what you come up with next though.

steve nn

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Thanks for the reassurance.

I have a Pioneer VSX45TX which auto calibrates so reference volume shows up on the display at 0db. With it set at 0db I get 85db spl readings at my listening position on my RS SPL meter.

I can't run the volume much higher than -15db in actual use, however, on the vast majority of my dvds, and have to reduce it to -22 db for Underworld and the Theatrical cut of FOTR, two dvds that are notorious for having "hot" audio tracks.

I had been running 2 subs, the Klipsch KSW-12 and a Yamaha YST-SW 205. The reason for running both was an attempt to cheaply plug holes in the frequency response when running the AVIA low frequency sweeps. These sweeps, btw, revealed that the little Yamaha would actually go down to 20hz while the much larger Klipsch pretty much died below 30 hz.

I'd spent hours playing with placement, crossover settings, and phase settings on these two subs and although actual dvd soundtracks were pretty much ok, and low bass was happening, it seemed to lack punch and Avia sweeps still revealed holes in frequency response at about 63-67 hz.

In an effort to get that "punch" I had resorted to setting sub level higher than other speaker levels, by about 5 to 10 db depending on the avia sweep curve. HT was pretty much ok, I thought, music less so but I'm don't listen to music much except as background.

With the STF-2, working alone, the AVIA sweep still reveals some weakness at some frequencies but it's only at most 3 to 5 db vs 10-15db with my previous setup, and I don't have to run sub level 5 to 10db "hot" anymore.

I have a crt based rptv, and frankly would be afraid to subject it to any more low frequency vibration than what the STF-2 is producing. I can feel the walls across the room from the sub vibrating quite a bit and that rptv is just a big hollow box. I fear for my convergence if the thing shook any more than it does.

I'm not good at describing what things sound like, but to me the bass sounds at least as low if not lower than before, seems to be much more defined or tighter for lack of better terms.

If I were to have an SVS 20-39 or a VTF-3 for comparison, I'd probably not be as happy, but at least from a financial standpoint maybe for me ignorance is bliss for the time being.

 

[Dave Nelms]

In answer to Edward's questions regarding my Ht info - here it is:

- My room is rather small. 12 X 10 with a 9 foot celing. There is also a 2 X 6 closet along one of the long walls (it used to be my daughter's bedroom. She now shares a room with her big sister)

- As far as where the sub is placed in the room, that can be just about anywhere. It will probably end up in the corner though.

- The normal listening position is aprox 1 1/2 feet from the back wall and the speakers are aprox 1 1/2 feet from the front wall. I have had my current sub (a HSU HSW10V) in the corners, along the side walls, directly in front of the listening position, and currently in the rear, near the corner and listening position.

- as far as what levels I listen to the sub at, this is where I get lost in the technical information. I currently attempted to set the subs level with AVIA, VE, and some other DVD set-up discs and have my pre-amp's sub output at
-0db and the sub's volume knob around the 11 o'clock position. try not to run the sub "hot" or "cold" but as close to the ballanced level as possible.

- As far as software, I watch movies mostly. Sometimes we do listen to music but that does not seem to happen much, maybe 25% at the most but I do enjoy the new DVD-Audio mixes.

I also sent an e-mail to Dr. Hsu at HSU research and he recomends a STF-3 in the corner. I was going to go in today to HSU and have a test listen but family got in the way of my appointment. (I hope they will forgive me).

My concern is looking at the specs for the STF -3 it just shows a max extention of 25 hertz. I was hoping to find a sub that would go down to 20 hertz or lower.

After reading of the positive response to the STF-2, I am starting to lean very hard to the STF-3 over the SVS subs. One of the main reasons is I am within driving distance to HSU and I have had good performance from a previous HSU sub.


And Chester if you are still there -

The Ice Dogs are a hockey team (great family fun) and they just remodeled allot of down town Long Beach, including a large shopping, dining area, and some new movie theaters and the area is called 'The Pike' after the old amusement area.

Steve - Thanks for all of your great info too.

 

[CurtisSC]

That is actually one of the many reasons I went with Hsu as well.

 

[Dave Nelms]

Curtis-

Are you happy with your HSU sub? What one do you have and how much did you pay?

Dave

 

[CurtisSC]

Dave,

I actually have an older VTF-3...got a year ago, b-stock, at Hsu's offices. So it was 20% off the old price of $849. Extremely happy. Can't imagine needing more sub. The $699 price tag for the current matte black version is a deal! More power, and it looks better.

Just recently got a used STF-2 for $275. Wow! In my room, it just didn't get as deep as the VTF-3...but on a couple of movie scenes I watched with it, and music....it did not give any to the VTF-3 except for the deepest of bass. I will end up using it in a secondary HT/music system someday, but right now it is giving my Parents a taste of good bass in their home.

You are more than welcome to swing by and check out the system. I am only 20 minutes from you, and with enough notice, I can get the STF-2 back as well(I will have to pry it away from my Dad).

 

[Edward J M]

Dave:

That's a pretty small room. I think a single 12" unit would be perfect, even at high volumes it won't distort or overload. The PCi series or the PB1-ISD (both of which employ the Improved Standard Driver) from SVS would be more than enough power/volume, as would the 12" STF-3 offering from Hsu.


The output capability in the 20-30 Hz region is what separates good subs from great subs; that's why we call them "sub"-woofers. And that's why Hsu offers the variable tune VTF-3 and SVS offers the variable tune PB1+ and the PC+. And along the same vein, that's why the TN1220 and the 16-46 enclosures exist - some people want/need/crave high output at the lowest octaves.

But for a fixed tune box sub like the STF-3 and the PB1-ISD, the designer has the tough job of striking the best balance between sheer output capability, extension, and clean output at the lowest usable frequencies. With the advent of DVDs that contain loads of signal content in the 20-25 Hz region, usable extension and output in this frequency range takes on more importance - the customer expects the fixed tune sub to do justice to nearly all HT DVDs and music too. That's a tough order to fill!

In my instrumented testing, both the PB1-ISD and the STF-3 got down to about 22-23 Hz evenly. Below 22 Hz, the PB1-ISD has an extension advantage, steadily growing to about 5 dB at 18 Hz. In addition, the PB1-ISD has nearly twice the clean output capability of the STF-3 at 20 Hz. Clean output capability is how loud the sub can play at a given frequency before distortion reaches 10%.

Since both subs have a similar tune point and internal volume, SVS achieves the extension advantage primarily through a slightly more aggressive EQ profile below 23 Hz. There is nothing inherently wrong with using mild EQ to flatten and extend the response (both Hsu and SVS employ this technique), to the extent it doesn't increase woofer distortion or overtax the amplifier.

Since the SVS has both an extension advantage below 23 Hz and lower distortion below 25 Hz, SVS is simply extracting more outright performance from the ISD woofer. If the 12" woofer in the STF-3 could have tolerated more EQ down low, I'm sure Hsu would have taken advantage of it; there would have been no other reason not to.

I'm in the process of testing the THD limited output of both subs above 30 Hz, but I'm not expecting any revelations in this region. It's not hard to build a sub that can play clean/loud above 30Hz, and both subs certainly meet that criterion. The frequencies where the sub first hits 10% THD are always the limiting factors in subwoofer performance. The fact a sub can hit 117 dB at 50 Hz is really a moot point if it can't make 85 dB at 20 Hz.

Bottom line - if you want clean output and good performance at 20 Hz from the $600 box class, the PB1-ISD is a better choice than the STF-3. It would take two co-located STF-3's to match the clean output of one PB1-ISD at 20 Hz. Other choices for good 20 Hz peformance would be the $700 VTF-3 in Max Extension (1 port plugged) tune, the $600 20-39PCi (naturally tuned to 20 Hz), or the variable tune $775 25-31PC+. Even tuned to 20 Hz with a single port plugged, the 25-31PC+ would dominate in a performance contest against any/all of the above choices.

Regards,

Ed

 

[steve nn]

The fact a sub can hit 117 dB at 50 Hz is really a moot point if it can't make 85 dB at 20 Hz.
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This is one of the reasons many are so impressed with what SVS has to offer. The high performance level in the lower hz material really adds a whole new dynamic to the HT/Music-room experience.

When I compared one 25-31CS+ to a previous dual 15" sub setup. The 25-31CS+ performed at a level that would have taken three (conservable) brand 15" subs to mach it's performance. This isn't taking into account how much better the SVS plays all the different flavors of bass also.

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"Bottom line - if you want clean output and good performance at 20 Hz from the $600 box class, the PB1-ISD is a better choice than the STF-3. It would take two co-located STF-3's to match the clean output of one PB1-ISD at 20 Hz."
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As you stated so well Ed in your own measuring contained with-in your post/review. This is one very good reason to go with a SVS offering versus ??brand. I recognize it isn't just about SPL but it does need to be addressed in ones decision to go with X brand or Z imo.

Just a thought.
Triple Threat
:b

 

[Dave Nelms]

Just when I thought I was leaning toward one sub, you guys come along and throw me a real curve.

Ed - you obviously know far more about this stuff than the average bear (Sorry to quaot Winnie the Pooh, but I do have two kids and there interests always seem to sneak into mine) and you have brought up some very good points. Aian after living with a good sub for many years I am really looking for that low powerful bass that brings as much feeling as sound pressure levels. I know which ever sub I choose there is going to be trade-offs, benifits and some drawbacks. The problem is you guys keep confusing me.

Curtis- Thanks for the invite. I will have to keep deciding what I am going to do.

I did wander into a CompUSA store last night and had a chance to look at a STF-2. There was no price and it was not even hooked up.

The next question I am going to have is who is going to help me set up my new sub when it gets here.

 

[CurtisSC]

It is not that difficult. If you need help, I can at least help you via a phone call.....and like I said, we are only 20 minutes apart if you really get into a bind.

 

[Dave Nelms]

Thanks Curtis-

I had a chance to think about which sub to get and I am now more confused than I was when I started this thread.

Ed really brought up some good points that are really hard for me to ignore.

I would like to stay loyal to the HSU but after reading about the different points, I might want to look into the SVS. I really like the cylinder subs so that seems to be pushing me back in that direction.

What ever I pick, after hearing all the great discussion I cannot thanks everyone enough for all of the great points they have brought up. I went back and read through the posts. I think I am going to be happy with either sub.

Ed-

I just looked at the SVS website to check prices and stuff and if I was to go with SVS, should I get the 20-39 over the 25-31 for more accurate low freq response?

Oh well - the questions continue, and Curtis is right, it is just a subwoofer.......

 

[CurtisSC]

David...don't rack your brain too much...it is just a subwoofer.

If you get an SVS, and still wonder about Hsu, you are "still" welcome to come by...and even bring your sub.

 

[Edward J M]

Dave:

I think you should buy both and keep the one you like the best. SVS offers a 45 day return policy, and Hsu offers a 30 day return policy. You should be able to determine which you like better after a month.

And I think you should take Curtis up on his friendly offer, too.

Yes, if you are going to stay with a fixed tune SVS cylinder, the 20-39PCi will give you better 20 Hz performance than the 25-31PCi.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Sasha_G]

Edward JM,

I speak for many HSU fans when I say we really would love to see those distortion measurements. As far I know, you haven't consulted us once about how we would like it measured. We don't agree with the way you don't measure distortion through the operating range of the product. Instead, you focus on frequencies outside its operating range.

The STF-3 is advertised as a subwoofer that goes down to 25 Hz. Why not test at 20 kHz while your at it?

Also, lets keep things in perspective. HSU products are amongst the most powerful on the market. I believe the VTF-2 is still one of the loudest subwoofers Sound & Vision has ever measured, coming in at 109.7 dB in Tom Nousaine's room using the normal 10% THD limit in the 25-62 Hz range. This is beyond most 15 inch subwoofers and 1000 watt subwoofers.