What's new

Hsu or SVS boxed sub (1 Viewer)

TommyL

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
590
ED, you forgot a few other highlights...SERVICE, SUPPORT, and a company that continues to please us with developments for each of our needs...bigger rooms, WAF problems etc.. They maybe other companies out there, but I feel this one has earned my business, and can't wait to spend some cash on a new model!:) tom:emoji_thumbsup:
 

David Lorenzo

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
198
There is one thing that the Hsu has over a PC Plus, it's a box. That alone will ensure sales until the PB-1+ comes along.

As much as I would like to, I just can't bring myself to like the look of a big cylinder.

Right now I'm looking at buying either a PB-1 or an Adire Dharman. Both are the same price and are tuned to the same frequency. I might get the Dharman based solely on asthetics since I'm sure the performance would be very similar.

Tom V (or anyone else) :

How do you think these 2 would compare?
 

Jack Gilvey

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 13, 1999
Messages
4,948
In addition, the HSU design requires power-robbing equalization in order to achieve its rated extension. The SVS design, by virtue of its larger internal volume and longer vent ports, is naturally tuned to 20 Hz and requires no power robbing EQ to achieve this flat FR.
Are the new SVS subs comparable in "Q"/rolloff to the older ones (I didn't find updated graphs)? I know that the older graphs showed the same anechoic rolloff as the un-equalized Hsu 1220, basically -5dB @ Fb according to Howard Ferstler ("low-Q"). He used the Hsu Optimiser with his 16-46 to gets approx. the same response as the 1220, if not the output. Depending on the room, a sub may or may not "need" this "power-robbing" eq.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/webdocs/B....html#Ferstler
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
Hi Jack:

Couldn't answer the first part of your question - Tom V might be able to though.

I can speak from my experience with the 20-39PC+. The in-room 1/12 octave FR curve with all three ports open has an F3 of around 17 Hz. With one port plugged, it stays flat to 11 Hz at which point the SS filter knocks it out.

Here are the numbers. First column is Hz, second column is three ports open, third column is one port plugged. These are not corrected numbers, nor have I applied an EQ or feedback destroyer. These are the actual readings from a calibrated B&K Model 2205 pro-grade SPL meter on C-Weighted Slow on a tripod at the couch from 11 feet away.

106063.5
10.666.571.5
11.272.577.75
11.97277.75
12.67076
13.369.576
14.169.576.5
157077.75
15.87179
16.87280
17.873.579.5
18.877.580
208176
21.182.578
22.48277
23.784.579.5
25.18379.5
26.680.577.5
28.27876
29.976.574.5
31.67775
33.576.574.5
35.57674.5
37.67675
39.875.574.75
42.27574.5
44.77575
47.37675.5
50.17574.75
53.177.576.5
56.27977.75
59.677.577
63.177.577
66.876.576.5
70.87575
757474
79.473.573.5
84.17575
89.17576
94.47675.75

I have fortuitous room acoustics that actually provide a gentle rise from 13-11 Hz. But my room is not that unique in shape or size, and I would imagine my F3 would be repeatable in a number of typical HT rooms.

With HSU, you don't have the choice of disabling the EQ, it is present to some extent in both max output or max extension mode.

I do want to make one thing clear. If SVS didn't exist, I know what three letters would be gracing my subwoofer - HSU. They make a fine subwoofer and I have heretofore often recommended them to others who couldn't live with a cylinder sub. I would not be embarrassed to own any HSU product.

Ed
 

Zack_R

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
220
Edward,

Those are fantastic numbers. With the three ports open test, what position did you have the subsonic filter?
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
Hi guys:

Yes, that is a great in-house FR - I'm really fortunate in that regard.

I always ran my FR sweeps with the SS filter set to 12 Hz. You can see its effect on both curves below 11 Hz.

I never ran the sweep at a high volume because it is essentially a 410 second continuous tone and I didn't want to fry the VC - so no Jack - I didn't worry about upsetting my digestive process! ;)

FWIW, I most often run the sub with all ports open and the SS filter set to 20 Hz. This is the "safest" setting for high volumes on hot DVDs.

Occasionally, I'll tune it with one port plugged and drop the SS filter to 16 or even 12 Hz and have some fun at "sane" volumes - like the "Irene" scene in Black Hawk Down. I've read elsewhere in HTF that it contains strong info to 8 Hz - it sure FEELS that way to me!

Regards,

Ed
 

Jack Gilvey

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 13, 1999
Messages
4,948
What type of boost does the VTF-3 have? I didn't see mention of it, and it can't be tested without the amp, of course.
 

Eddie Leary

Agent
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
28
Eddie, I don't think either of us are saying anything new at this point. My bias toward SVS is obvious and understandable(i'm hoping) that is why I only like to discuss bass using doucmented performance data(keeping things as objective as possible).
Hey Tom, this is understandable. Sorry if my message has not been clear. Let me summarize

-In listening tests, the VTF-3 and PC+ sound very similar and compete very well with each other. This is music and movies, concert dvd's, musicals, you name it

-We need to be careful how we present data. This applies to me, you, everyone. Is two data points for maximum levels a statically relevant measure or a conclusive measure of the capabilities of these subs? I think not - especially when these are not made for maximum levels at 20Hz. The data is very nice to see, and the more the better, just not always a conclusive measure, and i hope this much is clear.

-you get what you pay for with both Hsu and SVS. The more you pay, the better you generally get from both. Both brands compete very well with each other, so it is a win-win situation. Oranges and apples really.
 

Eddie Leary

Agent
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
28
As for the VTF-3 being comparable to the PC+ - I don't think so.
And I ask again, what listening experience do you have with a VTF-3? The people who have listening experience with both agree that they are very similar in performance (and I agree).

I only wish it were so easy to compare everything on paper. It would make all of our decisions that much easier. The PC+ does have an edge on paper. In reality, it doesn't work like that because every element of the design between these two products is different.

From looking at the VTF-3 and PC+:

-it doesn't seem to be double the volume. At the same time we all know that size is not everything. That is why some people prefer 25-31 to the 16-46. Extra size adds some efficiency. Overall design is what is important.

-there is 2 ports on the VTF-3 and 3 similar sized ports on the PC+, so 1/3 more. At the same time we know that port size is not everything. The VTF-3 has 2 ports and the 1220 only has 1, and the 1220 is very comparable and stronger in some areas than the VTF-3. Again overall design important.

-i am not even going to touch the amp comparison. we all know this is oranges to apples and not comparable as oranges to oranges

-rated extension and tuning points we all know is not comparable as oranges to oranges. Both extend very low, low enough for almost anyone really.

-power-robbing equalization is a bit of a misnomer. Hsu has been using this alignment from day 1, even when he had cylinder subs that were 24 inches in diameter! So it is not a question of using it because of size, it is a type of alignment that is different from others.

The great thing about this hobby is that we do have choices, because one product will not always be the most ideal for every person. Hopefully we can move away from patting each other on the back for the decisions we make and move away from claiming superiority of one company over the other, to celebrating the fact that two different manufacturers are offering amazing products for affordable products.
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
Eddie: I refuse to get into a protracted argument with you in this forum, so you can certainly have the last word here.

I do want to comment on some of your points about the PC+ and the VTF-3.

I don't know what "it doesn't seem to be double the volume" means to you. It is not hard to calculate the approximate internal volume of both subs, and the 20-39PC+ has very close to twice the internal volume as the VTF-3.

Regarding the difference in port area: Your statement "1/3 more" is mathematically incorrect; 1/3 of two existing ports does not result in a whole third port. The correct way to phrase it is "the SVS has 50% more port area than the HSU".

Why won't you "not even touch the amp comparison"? Both amps are rated in continuous watts of power as calculated using RMS voltage from a sine wave input. Simply because the method of amplification is different, doesn't mean the watts of power are different. Now if SVS or HSU were claiming "dynamic" power, or were using peak voltage instead of RMS voltage to calculate power output, you might have a point - but that is not the case. The truth is the SVS amp has twice the power of the HSU amp both using the same rating method.

Why aren't rated extension and tuning points a valid comparison? All sub manufacturer's worth their salt rate the sub's anechoic or quasi-anechoic frequency response and extension, usually within +/- 3 dB. Rated extension is a hallmark specification for a subwoofer and should be used in any comparison.

I agree "paper" comparisons (we used to call it "bench racing" when I was into hot rodding) are not a complete picture. But when you start to compile all the factual data available from the manufacturer and independent reviewers, and subjective comments from experienced and trusted members like BrianKR (who owned both dual 20-39CS+ and dual VTF-3 at the same time for 6 weeks), one can get a pretty darn accurate picture of how a given sub will perform compared to another. Many of us don't have another $850 lying around (plus return shipping) to evaluate two subs before making a decision. Like it or not, educated and informed "bench racing" is a CRITICAL buying decision for most of us.

Believe me, it came down to the wire regarding VTF-3 or the 20-39PC+ for me, and the decision wasn't easy. An independent comparo of both subs from the likes of John Johnson or Tom Nousaine would have been VERY useful, but it was simply not in the works and I had to rely on all my other accumulated data instead. You are correct - both companies make great products that stand a head and shoulders over the like priced competition. There are WAY too many satisfied HSU customers for me to ever think they make a bad sub. Like I said above, if SVS wasn't around, I'd be one happy HSU VTF-3 owner, I'm sure. But for my hard earned dollar, the SVS had a slight but definable and measurable edge in performance, flexibility, and usable features.

I'm not looking for pats on the back; I want to share the results of my research and ownership experiences with other HTF members who may be just getting into the subject and are looking for informed opinions so they in turn can make informed decisions of their own.

We all have an obligation to be fair and factual and impartial to the extent we can. Because other members rely on what we say - and sometimes a lot of money hangs in the balance. It's a big responsibilty actually - I call it "e-integrity". When BrianKR says the CS+ and the VTF-3 are virtually sonically indistinguishable, but the CS+ has the edge in output for HT, well I gotta believe him and that comment actually weighed heavily in my decision, FWIW.

Regards,

Ed
 

BrianAe

Second Unit
Joined
Dec 2, 2002
Messages
441
This whole conversation is funny. What really matters in the end is 1) how the sub sounds, 2) how much it costs, 3) the build quality, 4) the form factor and looks.

I think in the space of ~500 box subs there are many good options including SVS and HSU. I'll throw out www.aperionaudio.com as a better option for those who care about looks. The 12" sub has great performance, great looks, and a good list price of 599. Here's a link to their frequency responce chart http://www.aperionaudio.com/images/s...onse_graph.gif

There are many positive reviews around about this sub.

I definitly respect SVS in general and specifically for the idea of building high end subs (the cylinder line) at affordable prices by comprimising on the form factor which isn't a factor or can be overcome by many people. However, just like with mains, there are many good options out there.
 

Eddie Leary

Agent
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
28
We all have an obligation to be fair and factual and impartial to the extent we can.
Yes we do. Remember what I said earlier: It's a matter of propriety. I do not think it is appropriate to tell someone what is best without even listening to one (or both or all) of the products. We are not here to push our favorites either. What we prefer will not always hold true for everyone else. Be happy with your choice, just realize that there are other perfectly good choices out there for different people.

Both Hsu and SVS compete very well with each other. They offer great performance and features for a affordable price. With both brands, you get what you pay for, and the more you pay the better it generally gets. The VTF-3 and PC+ should more than satisfy almost anyone's tastes.
 

Dan Hine

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Messages
1,312
you get what you pay for, and the more you pay the better it generally gets.
Don't come to the DIY forum then. :)

Though I don't know why I think that you would. You've been here on this board for almost a month now and have ONLY made posts in this thread. Expand your horizons, Eddie.
 

Dan Hine

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Messages
1,312
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious as to which SVS subs YOU have heard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I thought I mentioned that earlier.
You did. I missed it.
 

Tom Vodhanel

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 4, 1998
Messages
2,241
Hi Guys,

The are a couple of points that I would like to make, based on documented reports from professionals in the field and simple math. In other words, I'm not going to further reduce the accuracy of this discussion by introducing constant maybes and mights.

1)if the 20-39PC+ is being compared, then when in 20hz mode, it will have 300% more port area than the vtf-3 when the 3 is tuned to about 18hz.

Now, someone could say this is the same between "1 penny and 3 pennies" but is that really accurate in the context of the discussion? Well, an easy way to test the accuracy of an analogy is to use on on other subject material in the same field.

So...I could say the difference between the HGS12 and the HGS18 subwoofers is the same as a difference between 1 penny and 3 pennies. Hmmm, that doesn't seem like it makes any sense...

Maybe the difference between a 35" tv and a 84" FPTV should be described as the difference between 1 penny and 2 pennies when any one asks? No, that doesn't make sense either...

Let's see...maybe it would work better in another field...

The difference between new Corvette and a new Cavalier is the difference between 1 penny and 3 pennies...no, that doesn't work.

The point is, reducing each advantage SVS has to a discussion between the difference in 1,2 or 3 pennies is ludicrous. It would be like me saying a single 25-31PCi is about the same as a dual TN20/500 amp combo from Hsu... What? the Hsu package has double the driver,almost triple the amp,double the porting,and about double the effective enclosure volume?...Who cares...none of that matters...it is like the difference between 1 penny and two pennies...right???

I don't know how this whole *penny logic* got started, but it couldn't be more misleading in the context it is being applied too...one of the more silly debate tactics I can recall really. I didn't have the time to make another post in this thread...but I couldn't let this type of *logic* go on any futher without explaining how misleading it is when every possible advantage for SVS is just reduced to the difference between 1,2 and 3 pennies. Interestly, none of the Hsu advantages introduced have been given the same treatment...things that make you wonder...



2)the internal volume of the vtf-3 is well under 2.5 cu-ft. Rip one apart and measure it, factoring in the brace,driver,amp and porting. Does that make it a bad sub? Nope, in fact it makes its outstanding performance even more impressive. But facts are facts.


3) """there is 2 ports on the VTF-3 and 3 similar sized ports on the PC+, so 1/3 more."""


that will be 50% to 300% more depending on the PC+ compared and the tuning configurations used.


""" At the same time we know that port size is not everything. The VTF-3 has 2 ports and the 1220 only has 1, and the 1220 is very comparable and stronger in some areas than the VTF-3"""

Actually, you own example proves why port area is so important in the deeper bass regions Eddie...

The VTF-3 ends up with a single 3" port around 17-18hz. The TN20 ends up with a single 4" port. So even with approx the same internal volume,same driver,same amp power put to each of these models...the HSU TN20(with the slightly larger port) had TWICE as much clean output (down low) than the vtf-3 did.

I guess port area DOES have some importance after all...


Tom V.
SVS
 

Eddie Leary

Agent
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
28
I guess port area DOES have some importance after all...
Clearly it is not meaningless, just not something to jump to conclusions on. It is an oranges to apples comparison no matter how you cut it.

You are taking one element of the design and singling it out, when in reality it is the whole design that counts. Looking a paper analysis does not work when comparing two different products.

In listening tests the VTF-3 and PC+ are very similar in performance.
 

Mike Sloan

Second Unit
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
456
I own (2) VTF-3's and I think they sound wonderful! If I had it to do over again...I would buy dual Ultras or 20-39 PC+. (side note..the modification to the VTF-3 amp had to do with soft clipping, adding heat sinks to certain transistors and reducing the sensitivity of the auto on circuit.) There is no question that SVS has an edge here...those saying they don't have not compared them side by side...or at least, are not as anal as I am! But I don't hear these differences at moderate listening levels! I could not tell them apart at -15dB ref. It becomes apparent when you really start pushing it to extremes and that's where I thought the SVS 25-31 exhibited less distress.;)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Forum statistics

Threads
356,810
Messages
5,123,592
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
1
Top