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How to switch to real 4k 120hz on a projector + all digital? (1 Viewer)

rick3r

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Hello,

I have a setup that is actually nice, for 1080p.
  • 112 inch GrandView Prestige series screen
  • BenQ w1070 projector
  • a computer running Plex media server, with no special graphic card besides onboard, with many TBs of space

For a long time, I would like to resolve 2 issues that annoys me alot, and since we're moving to a new house, I have a chance to replace components, since I will have to move them anyway.

Issues I want to get rid of :
  • Framerate : either on 24hz or 60hz (my source is a computer, remember), I clearly see all video artefacts. Some people don't notice. I DO, SADLY. Not sure of the terms, but it may refer to stuttering, horizontal panning "lag", or other similar terms. I played all I could do with compatible resolutions, no joy
  • Cannot play 4k/2160p content : could be the projector limitation, computer limitation, probably both since they have a couple of years

Avenues I am willing to explore :
  • Going for a 4k projector + graphic card + other components required to play correctly 4k, at 120hz : I think 120hz is mandatory to remove the stuttering/horizontal panning problem/other name this issue has
  • Going for a large 4k tv, but the size will be much smaller : these days, the "standard" for big TVs is 85/86 inch

Do you have any recommandations to achieve this ?

Thank you in advance for any positive contribution you should bring here !
 

JohnRice

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The frame rate is the frame rate. That's determined by the source material. Media is virtually all 24fps or 30fps. The occasional video game is almost the only source currently with higher frame rates. A display with capability for higher frame rates won't change the frame rate of the source. A display or projector with 120hz refresh rate will be able to display both 24 and 30fps without any pull-down, but what you're describing might be mostly due to an insufficient video card, rather than the projector. Bottom line, frame rate and refresh rate aren't the same thing.

Displays really aren't my area, but it's pretty common to confuse frame rate and refresh rate.

Others here understand the details a lot more than I do.
 

DaveF

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You don’t need 120 Hz specifically and that won’t fix the frame rate mismatch per se. Though some find it helpful.

Movies aren’t 24.000 Hz. They’re 23.976 Hz (24*1000/1001, exactly). So you get a stutter every 1001 frames, or about every 42 sec if you’re playing 23.976 content at 24.

Going to 120 Hz is nice in that it covers 24 Hz, 30 Hz, and 60 Hz material without needing frame rate matching. But it’s still not an exact multiple of 23.976 or 29.997 content. So movies will still have stutters, though I think they’re less frequent, about every 208 seconds.

What you want is frame rate matching if you’re a purist. Plex supports that. Most projectors support 23.976. But Intel integrated graphics has problems with this in older hardware. So get a recent (past about 2016) Intel system, or a GPU that supports the frame rates you need.

Or, if you’re not a purist, you need to use frame interpolation. Plex should support this. Maybe you need a GPU to get good performance. Running at 120 or 240 Hz will give more options with frame interpolation. (Devices like AppleTV are doing this by default increasingly, with frame rate matching as optional.)

For 4K, you need a 4K projector (obviously).
You need a way to rip 4K material.
If you want to upscale HD to UHD then you need a GPU and something like madVR.

All that said, I’ve found it much easier and more reliable to use an Nvidia Shield as my HTPC front end. I suggest getting your 4K projector and a Shield Pro (2019 model). Your PC just has to work as server, so no computer or GPU upgrade. The Shield can do frame rate matching. It’s got some nice 4K output, I’ve read. I’m not sure about it’s frame interpolation, if you don’t want to do frame rate matching. But this is a <$200 box, so low cost effort. If it’s not adequate then you can invest in the $300 to $1000 GPU to power madVR.
 

rick3r

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Thank you both for your input on frame rates and refresh rate.

My actual projector DOES frame rate matching, in that it sets itself at 24hz when launching a movie. The problem, though, is that I easily, too much easily in fact, can see the bad effect that I call "stuttering, horizontal panning lag". My goal is to finally get rid of that.

My idea was to get to 120hz for that. Indeed, it will simply reproduce 24hz frames 5 times in a row, but I was hoping that maybe some proper technology (each manufacturer has its own) can reduce motion blur that would happen with the 5x24 technique, and maybe it would be better than plain 24hz...

As for the Shield, this is a good question. From what I can gather on reading on the subject, it does a correct job, but when it comes to ask for the best, it seems that an eye that is hard to please will see the limitations. Said another way, it seems that a Shield cannot render the media at the very same level of a physical Bluray disc...

Any thoughs about those points ?
 

DaveF

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Thank you both for your input on frame rates and refresh rate.

My actual projector DOES frame rate matching, in that it sets itself at 24hz when launching a movie. The problem, though, is that I easily, too much easily in fact, can see the bad effect that I call "stuttering, horizontal panning lag". My goal is to finally get rid of that.
Oh. That’s how movies look. It’s supposed to be that way. It’s fundamental to movies shot at 24 FPS.

If you don’t care about watching movies correctly :) and want that gone, you’re looking for the Soap Opera Effect. Turn on motion smoothing in your projector. Or buy a new projector or TV with good motion smoothing. With a 240 Hz LED TV you’ll likely get that out of the box by default. I don’t know that you need a new computer and GPU.
 

rick3r

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Yes, it may be considered strange for some, but for movies, I am not a purist. I prefer to get the impression that the screen is merely a transparent glass between me and the actors, rather than appreciating the "movie effect". So you can be sure that I would never add things like film grain effect ! Unfortunately, the W1070 offers no motion smoothing/frame interpolation features, so yes I will upgrade it.

The question, my original question in fact remains. I need to get the right components to get all-4k with the best quality. HDR10+, BT2020, 120hz, 4:4:4 (seems to be impossible actually with HDMI bandwith limit).
 

DaveF

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4K display of choice and Nvidia Shield Pro (if you’re using Plex HTPC). Or build a new GPU-based PC and run MadVR for best possible tweaked 4K output. But that’s a hobby unto itself.

You should post in the displays forum to ask about the display. You’re looking for a display where motion smoothing and frame interpolation is a priority over other attributes.
 

rick3r

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I wanted to bring here a conclusion to my initial question.

I decided to buy a Nvidia Shield Pro to compare, and I am impressed by the results. Everything is better than with my HTPC. Picture is smoother, more beautiful, the controls of the player are quicker. I will definitely drop my HTPC as a frontend to keep the Shield.

As a recall, my HTPC have a core i7, 16GB of RAM, SSD, W10, so it is "relatively" recent technology.

Maybe my curlprit was the lack of a dedicated graphics card. Maybe then a Shield Pro have better rendering capabilities in 1080p than Intel's Skylake processors. I still do not have a 4k display to test, but I am optimistic.
 

DaveF

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Glad the Shield Pro works well for you. :)

For display, it’s all about the GPU. Intel integrated graphics can do the basics well, but doesn’t have the power or features for high frame rate and 4K interpolation.

But the integrated devices like the Shield have pretty good graphics abilities. And so much easier that getting into customized GPU software like madVR.
 

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