How to buy new speakers? (1 Viewer)

[mylan]

As far as SVS, I get that vibe as well. Over on another site the boxes get way more talk even though there are no differences in output.
You can even turn those cylinders on their sides behind a couch and be hidden. In my room due to placement issues, a cylinder would work the best yet I still want the box.

And no, it isn't just you, there is a term for it but I can't recall at the moment but your audible memory (my term) fades quickly. For me, it got to a point where I couldn't tell a difference between a Monitor Audio and a cheaper Definitive Technology, even side by side so I bought the Def Techs.

 

[DaveF]

I did hear one pair that immediately sounded amazing, Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand. Only after I got home did I discover they cost twice what I thought, putting them far out of my budget.

The Cylinder SVS behind the couch is interesting, but wouldn't quite work for me. Too bad, as my wife would probably prefer that

Which Def Tech did you buy? I listened to them some at BestBuy. I was intrigued. But I realized I don't want the towers with the integrated powered woofers, so need a different demo configuration.

 

[mylan]

This was ten years ago and Def tech doesn't even make them anymore but they are the Celsius, a front-ported bookshelf model that was designed to fit into custom enclosures. They worked for me because I had to sit them on a bookshelf at the time. If I had to guess the small Def Tech 350's minus the sub section would be what they sound like and are similar in size. I got a matching center, the C1 and the BP1x bipolor surrounds. It was and still is a pretty good sounding system for just over a grand. I got a Velodyne HGS 10 sub at the same time that worked well in my old space but is lacking in my new theater, that is what got me to looking at SVS when the budget allows

I was at BB recently and heard those Vienna's and they do sound amazing, I like those on wall surronds but agree that they are out of my price range. The Def Tech towers do not impress me much, I would prefer to locate my own subs but the Mythos line is nice.

You know, I think it was Ed Moxley who stated that speakers need time to break-in and I am of the opinion that is true for both the speaker and one's ear. Whatever you bring home is going to sound better once you get used to the sound.

 

[DaveF]

Anything will be an upgrade over what I have now. I had delusions of making an informed and personal choice .

I'll do a few more demos. I also need to ask the stores about buying both Dipole and Bookshelf surrounds to see which works better in my house; returning the other.

 

[gene c]

Is it just me, or is it very difficult to discern differences between speakers when there's any delay in listening to them?

I've heard this before. Did you take a favorite cd/dvd with you? Rather than compare one speaker to another I just try and judge how much I like the song I brought with me. Don't know if that would be easier for you or not but that's what I would try and do.

I'm about ready to buy an expensive set of Paradigm speakers and be done with it.

That's what I did a few years ago with Polk RTi's. Spent the next year and a half trying to get rid of what I thought was a harsh mid-range. Finally sold them for a more neutral (though still just a tad on the bright side) speaker with a softer, smoother mid-range.


I had delusions of making an informed and personal choice .

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene c

I've heard this before. Did you take a favorite cd/dvd with you? Rather than compare one speaker to another I just try and judge how much I like the song I brought with me. Don't know if that would be easier for you or not but that's what I would try and do.

I took a demo CD, with a collection of songs spanning styles from light piano to movie soundtrack to metal. Even so, sonic differences are difficult to track between speakers. Much less when they're in different rooms. The revelatory experience was switching between the Vienna Acoustics speakers. But that was the exception to the rule. The audio difference was surprisingly distinct (especially since they're in the same high-end line).

I have a couple of DVDs to use as well. But I chose not to take them into BestBuy, wary of being accused of shoplifting on the way out. And the local shop had its video demo room out of commission this weekend.

What I need to do is have the salespeople show me how to operate their demo rooms and then leave me alone for an hour. They don't know much about audio demos and mostly get in they way. I need to correct that.

 

[DaveF]

Center channel speakers are huge!

Tonight I'm considering the room dimension and the speaker sizes and how they fit. From my meager understanding of bi/dipoles, they're not a good choice for my room. So it's back to bookshelf speakers for the surrounds. Fine: add a few bucks for stands.

But the center channel is a big problem. In the class I'm looking, they're about 7" tall and 13" deep, so they come above the bottom of the TV and push the TV back off the hutch. (sigh)

Can you put a TV on top of center channel?
I could wall mount the center...not my perference.

Or I could buy cheaper, smaller speakers for something smaller.

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

Can you put a TV on top of center channel?
I could wall mount the center...not my perference.

Adding to my previous question: could I put the center channel in a cubby, which would serve as a TV stand? Does that harm the acoustics if the center is inside another box or cabinet?

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by DaveF

Quote:


Adding to my previous question: could I put the center channel in a cubby, which would serve as a TV stand? Does that harm the acoustics if the center is inside another box or cabinet?

The cubby idea is better than placing the TV right on top of it. As far as acoustics, I would just make sure that the plane of the front of the center speaker is flush with the cubby's opening (even if this pushes the plane of the speaker "ahead" of the plane of the TV screen) and you should be fine.

If the center channel winds up signficantly lower than the TV, and if your viewing distance is on the short side, you may want to tilt the speaker up ever so slightly for the best effect.

 

[DaveF]

Yes, I would need to tilt up the speaker slightly. My wife isn't crazy about this and wants me to buy smaller, cheaper speakers But I'm hoping to stick to my original plan.

 

[Ed Moxley]

Try to explain to your wife that home theater is about sound. Not how small the speakers are. Remind her that you can get speakers that are rosewood or cherry or other finishes, that look like nice furniture, if she wants good looking, over good sounding stuff.

 

[mylan]

Originally Posted by DaveF

Quote:


Adding to my previous question: could I put the center channel in a cubby, which would serve as a TV stand? Does that harm the acoustics if the center is inside another box or cabinet?

I have my center installed in a Salamander cabinent and it sounds great and is completely hidden. I took the grille off because the speaker is hidden behind the metal mesh grille of the cabinent.

 

[gene c]

Adding to my previous question: could I put the center channel in a cubby, which would serve as a TV stand? Does that harm the acoustics if the center is inside another box or cabinet?

The general concensus is that sticking a speaker in a cabinet or cubby hole does affect the sound but in my everyday room my fronts are inside a "cubby cabinet" and are rear ported to boot and I think they sound just fine. Not boomy or bloaded at all. And I took the Infinity C250 center apart and mounted the drivers, tweeter and cross-over inside a custom-built entertainment center. Again, sounds fine to me.

 

[DaveF]

I'm also now considering wall mounting the TV to make room for the center channel on the hutch. (I have an understanding, or at least tolerant, wife)

 

[DaveF]

To date, I've listened to speakers from these lines. I've found it practically impossible to do A/B comparisons. Suprisingly, even getting a 5.1 demo is difficult. The woes of small cities.

Paradigm Monitor : I fell in love with these at first listen. Don't know why. They just felt right. A second listen with my own material, and I'm ready to buy if I can decide just what speakers and sort out practicalities

Paradigm Cinema 330 (center) : Didn't perfectly voice match the Monitor towers. Probably great as a matched kit, but I've decided to spend more for better performance.

KEF iQ : Sounded good as a stereo pair. Didn't care for them in the 5.1 demo. Why? Don't know.

Polk TSi : Sounded good. Cheaper than the Paradigms. Wish I could hear them A/B. Still prefer Paradigm for no good reason.

PSB Image : Listened to a stereo pair of bookshelfs. Sounded good. No 5.1 demo available. Seemed pricey to me.

Velodyne sub : Boomy and thumpy. Did not integrate with Polks they way the Paradigm subs integrated with Paradigm speakers. Probably a configuration problem. But left me unimpressed.

Definitive Technology : Meh. First demo was a $599 5.1 kit, far below the quality I want. Second demo was the towers with 8" powered woofers, which is exactly what I don't want.

Vienna Acoustics : Love at first listen until I realized they are $3000 a pair!

High-end electrostatics at BestBuy : I missed the name. Some $3000+/pr speakers that sounded poorly when turned up.

I began my search intended to buy an 7.1 SVS surround system, with Aperion a second option. Shop based on the numbers and research and expert reviews and get a deal from online-only manufacturers.So my first surprise, is I've done a complete 180. I'll probably buy a pricey Name Brand from a local boutique shop driven substantially by gut reaction and emotional response to the demo.

But that gets to my next big surprise: the internet dealers (i.e. SVS and Aperion) are no cheaper than buying name-brand at the store. I guess it's the "market" at work, because everyone has about the same price for about the same product quality. Maybe the online guys actually sell better performance for the same price, but that's untestable by me, since I can't listen to their product.

And as I'm leaning strongly towards Paradigm, I'll probably not even get my SVS sub -- something I've been lusting for for about 10 years. The Paradigm subs seem to be of similar quality, similar price, similar size to SVS and match stylistically the rest of the speaker system.

The third surprise is I have to do a sizeable room change: probably going to wall mount the TV to make room for the center channel.

And the fourth surprise was I'm leaning towards towers for the front LR. I meant to go bookshelf to save money. But Towers appear a better value than Bookshelf + Stands for the front LR.

To conclude, the kits I'm most seriously considering are these, which are within $100 of each other. As always, I recommend comments and ideas

5.1 : Paradigm Monitor 9 + CC-290 + Mini Monitor + DSP-3200
7.1 : Paradigm Monitor 7 + CC-190 + Mini Monitor + DSP-3200 + Atom Monitor

 

[Jason Charlton]

I, too, have come to realize the benefit of having a local boutique shop nearby. In my case, the part that sealed the deal was when the guy let me take a pair of speakers (large towers) home for a couple of days to test in my own living room. They weren't the exact model I was considering, but they were very close. As you mentioned though, many boutique shops still seem to cater mostly to 2-channel listeners, so 5.1 demos are harder to come by, which is disappointing.

I think either Paradigm system is an oustanding choice - and as you mentioned, the Paradigm subwoofers are capable performers and combined with the ease and convenience of getting a complete system from one place makes that a pretty easy decision.

As for which system to get - it's hard to say for sure which way to go. Normally I warn people that there isn't really much 7.1 material out there, and if cost is an issue, save the cash and keep it a simple 5.1 system for now that can be upgraded to 7.1 later. However, as you've mentioned in this thread (and as many of us married guys know) you don't get the chance to upgrade very often , and if you don't take advantage of the opportunity now, who knows when you'll get another chance.

If you do a lot of entertaining, an extra bonus with the rear speakers is being able to put music on in "all channel stereo" mode which really helps to fill the room with sound - since you mentioned your room is open on one side, this could come in handy.

If you think this is your one shot to get this done, then go for the 7.1 system and sit back and enjoy it.

 

[gene c]

But that gets to my next big surprise: the internet dealers (i.e. SVS and Aperion) are no cheaper than buying name-brand at the store.

That's an interesting statement. I have to admit that I don't know a great deal about speakers (5.0 packages) in the $2500 and up range so I can't say how those in a boutique would compare to internet direct speakers but in the $2000 and lower range found at mass market retailers I'd have to disagree. Now, I'm not saying all internet speakers in that price range are a better value than all store speakers but when I replaced my Polk RTi's (a very good speaker for what they are) with the Swans (about the same price and configuration) it wasn't even close. Even the Infinity Beta series, which I like quite a bit, aren't up to the Swans in quality of components, fit, finish and sound quality not to mention they're georgous. But who knows. Maybe I need to spend more time in the boutiques.

 

[DaveF]

My assessment was a simple cost comparison between 5.1 kits with similar size speakers, boxes, and specified +/-3dB rolloffs. An Aperion 5 system seems to compare to a Paradigm 7 system, both about $2500 give or take 5% (including tax, shipping, and local sale pricing). Likewise, the SVS MTS system is about $3000 shipped, and looks to compare with a Monitor 9 system, also about $3000. In this view, I found (to my surprise) no price benefit in buying online. (I won't quibble aesthetics.)

Is that valid? Do these online systems actually perform at a higher level than their price suggests? Does the SVS MTS line actually perform like, say, the Paradigm Studio series, which costs almost double?

If so, I'd like to know before I buy.

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Charlton


As for which system to get - it's hard to say for sure which way to go. Normally I warn people that there isn't really much 7.1 material out there, ...

My understanding is that 7.1-specific material isn't required. It's using an extension of the DPLII matrixing method to extract Front Height information from all 5.1 encoded material. And as my experience that DPLIIx works wonders getting (pseudo) 5.1 out of stereo signals, I would think IIz could get two channels out of 5.1. But I've not heard it, so I'm asking elsewhere if it really is worthwhile.

 

[gene c]

Is that valid? Do these online systems actually perform at a higher level than their price suggests? Does the SVS MTS line actually perform like, say, the Paradigm Studio series, which costs almost double?

If so, I'd like to know before I buy.

There's no way I can answer that. But if I were purchasing speakers in that price range I'd have to budget a few bucks to find out. I can't tell you how to spend your money but I would order the MTS bookshelves, buy the Paradigms you would use as surrounds and listen to them both for three weeks or so in my own living room. You can't look at a spec sheet or listen to some knucklehead on the Internet to find out for sure if a speaker is a good value for you or not. I bet those KEF's looked pretty good on paper too. Doesn't mean they sounded good. The RTi's sounded great in the store. Not so good in my home.

If you can't see spending money to potentially ship speakers back and forth then by all means stick to the boutiques. I can't imagine you being disappointed with the Paradigms. I had to find out for sure and it worked out well for me.

There are hundreds of speakers out there to chose from, some you may never heard of before like Crystal-Acoustics. You can't listen to them all but I'd consider SVS just on reputation alone.