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How much sub do I need?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Bill Law, Nov 6, 2002.

  1. Bill Law

    Bill Law Stunt Coordinator

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    My theater room is 4,000cubic feet without a rear wall which really translates into a space of up to 8,200cubic feet since it opens to a larger area.
    I have 2-Vienna Mahlers, 1-Oratorio & 4-Waltz's.
    I planned on one REL Stadium III.
    Is one enough or is that the right sub?
    Please no DIY or internet-brand(s) advice.
    Would I be better off with a larger 18" like the Velo HGS18? or two?
    Thanks!
     
  2. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Depends on the SPL and extension you're looking for. To achieve reference levels you would need a serious subwoofer or two (an HGS-18 might not cut it). If you're geared more towards music listening, or movies well under reference level, something like the REL or many other popular models will do just fine.

    It's a bit unfortunate that you are avoiding DIY and internet brands, because they could save you a lot of money especially if you're looking for loud/deep performance in your room. What are your concerns with those options?
     
  3. John A. Casler

    John A. Casler Second Unit

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    Hi Bill,
    You have a huge space to create bass in, and you need something that can move some air.
    I don't know if you consider VMPS an internet brand (they have dealers around the country - where are you), but the LARGER would both match the quality and musicality of your speakers, along with having prodigious SPL capabilities.
    www.vmpsaudio.com
    Secondly but maybe just a touch down the musical scale would be the SUPERNOVA Mk IV 15" by Earthquake. It will match the HGS15 and at a lower price (generally)
    http://earthquakesound.com/serv02.htm
    All the best,
    John
     
  4. Bill Law

    Bill Law Stunt Coordinator

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    I just want something simple I can buy, not build.

    The REL is typically mated to the Viennas (probably because Sumiko sells both). They claim it is more musical ...like the VA's.
    I know I need to move some air.
    Is there some formula based on volume?
    I want BOTH musical and HT slam!
    Any recommendations?
     
  5. John A. Casler

    John A. Casler Second Unit

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    The RELs are certainly good musical subs, but they are not known for their SLAM.

    I can't think of a better SUB for your purpose than the VMPS Larger. Unless you want to spend the big ones and get a Wilson or Krell.

    If you crossover low, you could also get by with the SVS or HSU.

    The bad thing about the VMPS is it only costs around $900 fully loaded with options and it requires an outboard amp.

    So for Less than $1500-$1700 you have a Super Sub that will perform like the Wilson and the Krell in both departments.

    I have one (without any options cost $699) and it is the best musical sub I have ever heard. It also matches or exceeds my Earthquake 15" for HT SLAM. (with only a 300watt amp)

    The HGS 18" Velo will also give you HT slam, but I don't rate it as good musically and it is more expensive. ($2000+ generally on the street)

    Regards,

    John
     
  6. Bill Law

    Bill Law Stunt Coordinator

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    I expect to spend $3-5k on sub(s) if necessary.
    I'm sunk so deep in the VA's I'd hate to skimp on the sub.
    Seems like the output is the key issue to match room volume and none advertise it..only freq resp..
    (I'm paranoid i guess..seems like everyone pushing the internet brands or DIY's SELLS or owns them.)
    Are no public subs worthy of this setup?
    Just can't decide..
    1 good or 2 oks
     
  7. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Bill,
    Have you considered having someone custom build a subwoofer for you? Nowadays this has become a much smarter idea, especially given the proliferation of high-performance DIY components such as the Adire Tumult. I would suggest contacting Kyle Richardson of http://www.acoustic-visions.com and asking about a custom built PR Tumult sub. At a price of around $800-1000 plus maybe $400 for a giant amp, you should get at least close to reference level in your room. The Tumult can displace 5 liters of air linearly, and when adequately ported and powered (2 18" PRs; 1400 watts or more) would be an amazing performer. Compared to VMPS for example, I don't know... but recalling the recent discussions about those subs I would be wary of any performance claims.
    At a lower cost, you could have multiple Tempests (the Tempest is basically the ideal value 15" subwoofer) but that would take up a lot of space.
    It's a bit late, but you can save a few hundred bucks if you make a decision in the next two days (the pre-order specials end Nov. 8 IIRC).
    I can't give you any specific formula for figuring out what you need. What makes such decisions even harder is that all subwoofer specifications are created differently and most are blatantly overstated. Good things to look for in high-end subs are drivers with long *linear* displacement, wide flared ports or serious PRs, and well-built enclosures (usually pretty large). A subwoofer that mates well to your large room would need a flat response into the lowest frequencies even under load... so I would rule out sealed box subs and small, heavily equalized models such as Sunfire.
    Personally I'd go with a Tumult. There's a reason so many people here are crazy about it... basically Dan Wiggins [owner of Adire Audio] came here and said "What do you want in your ultimate subwoofer?" It's the result of that. You can find the thread at http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=50843 .
    I hope I'm providing some insight here; good luck with your decision.
     
  8. mark rush

    mark rush Stunt Coordinator

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    The rel subs will sound nice with the speaker selection you have made, problem is your room is very big and if you want big sound you will have to spend some money to get it, it would take two of the Stadium III's to get close to reference level, some other choices are the Revel B15, two of these would be awesome.also don't think big sound will not come from small size try two of the Sunfire true subwoofer signature's these tiny subs will mow down most big subs at any price, the Wilson's{WHOM subwoofer or the watchdog} put out some big sound but are BIG money, so unless you have money to burn you might look at something else another choice is the Velo hgs series, still might take two subs to get were you need to be{ I have two Paradigm pw2200 subs and still want more} might look at the Paradigm reference series the Servo 15 another excellent sub, it would sound great with your setup, still might need two though and another choice would be the subs from BGW {the looks of these subs are not the best}the might M2200 or the smaller M1100 one of these would be more than enough sub for almost anyone, so check out some of the choices I gave you and good luck on your decision
    Mark
     
  9. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Twin SVS Ultras with the Crown amp, or some other high quality 500+WPC high current amp of your liking. Internet-company-only issues aside, this set-up will run with the big dogs in a room that large. Musical, HT slam, subsonic extension, low THD, major SPL - what's not to like? 45 day return policy - not much to risk here except return shipping.
    Check out the below comparos with an open mind and decide for yourself whether or not you think this package would be a legitimate contender for your set-up.
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-5-2002.html
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2001.html
    Regards,
    Ed
     
  10. Yee-Ming

    Yee-Ming Producer

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    Bill,

    I was also skeptical of buying a sub unheard via internet, and in my case it was an even bigger risk since I'm in Singapore and shipping on my SVS was US$106, making a return quite expensive.

    but I took a leap of faith. I'm glad I did. I have the "baby" 25-31PCi (tuned to 22). I am sure it thrashes everything else in its price class (even after factoring the shipping); my friend has an REL-Q201 which cost a little more than my SVS, and while it's a nice sub (with admittedly better WAF), it doesn't have the sheer "slam" that the SVS does. and yes, the SVS is plenty musical as well.

    so if you're in the US and shipping costs are much less, why not give it a shot?
     
  11. Reginald Trent

    Reginald Trent Screenwriter

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    Bill, I understand your concerns about blind internet purchases. I was in the same boat before bit and bought a 16-46Pci. The sub is simple wonderful with awesome low frequency response that is in a word transparent.

    BTW If your budget is 3-5 grand I think you probably are shortchanging yourself by not checking out SVS, especially since they have a 45 day return policy. However, I understand if you choose not to.
     
  12. Bill Law

    Bill Law Stunt Coordinator

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    I think I'll start with one REL Stadium III & add a second if necessary.
    Thanks for the replies.
    I just can't get over the fear of internet-only speakers.
    If I could maybe I would have Rockets now and money to burn on a sub.
    Meanwhile.....
    Sound like a decent setup?
    My only concern is the REL has only a 10" driver where the VeloHGS18 has an 18". Neither tells you the throw length of the driver.
     
  13. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    The HGS18 has about 3/4" of clean throw each way if memory serves. I would definitely go with the HGS18 over the rel in 8000+ cu-ft. Adding a second(perhaps stacking it on the first)if needed.

    If your local VEL dealers have any of the older FSR VELs left...try to get a good deal on those. They were less expensive to start and actually offered a bit more performance than the newer HGS series because they(the fsr) had slightly larger enclosures.

    TV
     
  14. Michael Roderiques

    Michael Roderiques Stunt Coordinator

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    Bill You may want to look into these units.
    The do have a dealers in th states
    Whise Subs
    In a 8000+ room, you would want 2 HGS-18's
    or more. Depends on what you are looking for.
    If you are looking for pure SPL, you could try this one
    Quad Driver Horn
    OK so the last one is a shot of humor!
     
  15. Greg_R

    Greg_R Screenwriter

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    If you must purchase locally, I would suggest auditioning the Paradigm Servo-15 (w. X-30 crossover) before buying the REL. The Velodynes are also very nice but cost more money.
    A subwoofer's performance is going to depend on the amount of air it can displace (cone area * linear excursion), the size of the enclosure, & amp power. A REL with a 10" driver, smaller enclosure and 200W is not going to outperform some of the other subs mentioned (except in the category of looks).
    Oh yes, some of these internet brands are available for audition. Check out http://www.audioenvy.com/ for details.
     
  16. Bill Law

    Bill Law Stunt Coordinator

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    The actual room is only 4200 cubic feet.
    BUT since there is no rear wall (curtains only) it OPENS into another area. Creates an L-shape...the room being the vertical part of the L. The opening being the horizontal part.
    No one would watch or listen outside the 4200 cu.ft. area.
    Does that make a difference?
     
  17. Greg_R

    Greg_R Screenwriter

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    No... the subwoofer is still trying to pressurize the larger volume (regardless of where the listener is). However, sitting closer to the subwoofer will increase the perceived SPL...
     
  18. Michael Roderiques

    Michael Roderiques Stunt Coordinator

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    Bill

    Can you close off this area with doors?

    An option you may want to look into, as this open space will have an effect on the complete system.

    If that is possible, then your options really increase.
     
  19. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Bill, I think you're better off considering something in the realm of dual CS-Ultras... or a custom built option as I suggested above. To me, a REL or single HGS wouldn't be enough for that room. But that's coming from an insane person...
     
  20. Robb Roy

    Robb Roy Supporting Actor

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    Bill,

     

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