how many of you actually USE the Denon warranty? (1 Viewer)

[Jamey F]

Can someone please explain why there is more new, factory sealed, Denon product in the hands of "non-authorized" dealers than "authorized" ones?
I am surprised that "authorized" dealers stand for it.

This is why Denon has their policies. IMO, it is a very visible, uneffective way to handle the problem. It makes dealers happy that the manufacturer is doing something.

As mentioned before, I assume authorized dealers are actually causing a good portion of this by buying many more units than they need to get the price lower. Then, they sell the extras to non-authorized sources near cost to move them. Denon wouldn't mind this as they sell more units, that they don't have to warranty. It's all self perpetuating. Kinda like when 2 companies are bidding against each other. If both bid unusually high on all jobs, they both make tons. Instead, they undercut each other and make minimal profits. Thats the way the system works. Greed works best for us, the customer. Dealers try to get a better price to compete with other dealers, while creating the unauthorized channel that undercuts them. Any attempt by manufacturers to keep the price artificially inflated simply sends the customer away and that manufacturer and their dealers suffer.

Instead, create an alternative (like they do in the 1083). Market that as a lower cost solution if you don't need or want the local dealer perks. Denon should peg the 3803 at a certain price no matter how many a dealer buys, but authorzed channels should have to buy a certain number to keep their status.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

 

[charles mix]

Why should Denon change this policy, they make more money on the internet sales than the dealer sales. I would love to sell 10,000 people something and never have to spend another cent on it. This is what they have done. Elite used to almost eliminate internet sales early on in there initial sales push. Finding Elite was impossible to get on line. How did they do this? Well I assume the limited and checke who they sold to. If Denon would like to limit the internet purchases to the Specalty line, then fine, I would buy it. I love my Denon products and have owned them for several years. The first one from an authorized dealer, full price, the other from the internet. What was the difference? My wallet!
I build computers for seveal companies in the area. Do you know what my biggest expense is? The repairs and Tech support. I want to try the Denon plan and sell something for the same price and offer you nothing. How long would I stay in business? Not very! If I pay half the price, then I will take half the warranty, deal? Good give me my one year. Thank you that is all!

 

[charles mix]

ignore my spelling! Sorry in previous post, to lazy to fix.

 

[AustinKW]

Charles,

Sorry you feel I was talking down to you - I wasn't. Your previous posts mentioning confusion (I thought yours) and some questions (you asked them) about Denon pricing to various channels led me to believe you were seeking some information on how the tri-level marketing system employed by Denon operates. As you already know this system, I guess my posts were wasted on you. Perhaps and hopefully they will be of use to others. Although, your automotive analogy fully considered, maybe you shoud read what I posted just one more time.

Austin

P.S. There's no problem obtaining warranty service on a used Denon product if you know the secret. But, of course, you already do.

 

[charles mix]

No problem, we all are entitled to our own opinions......even if they are wrong.......just kidding. I will still buy Denon, they just make a good product. Mine is in the shop right now as a matter of fact.

 

[Phil Mays]

AustinKW,

I think you are missing my point.

Does it serve Denons "LONG TERM" needs to produce a product without a warranty.

I understand multi-level (market 201) marketing, however it does confuse the consumer. Take for example the hotel industry. Days Inns (sold franchises years ago)for Days Hotels, Days Suites, Days Inns, & Days Stops. Howard Johnson has, HJ Plaza, HJ Hotel, HJ Inn, HJ express. Holiday Inn has Crown Plaza, Select, Sunspree, & Express.

The basic product was the same in all of these. Sure you get some extra bells and whistles with the upper end brands and even extra services. However these (and all) franchises realized that too much segmentation was going on and the public was confussed. The one thing they did have though was a warrenty or satisfaction guarantee as they all realize if you do not stand behind your product you will not succeed in the long term.

Could you imagine if the sold their upper end hotels with a satisfation guarantee and the lower end without some type of assurance that you are getting what you pay for.

 

[Jamey F]

Come on Phil...

There is no way you can stay at an unauthorized hotel. I can agree with your position, but I can't agree with your example.

Does it serve Denons "LONG TERM" needs to produce a product without a warranty.

You're assuming they have a "Long Term" plan in mind if you think they are going to concentrate on one. I would think this policy could be good long term, as long as Denon makes a real effort to wipe out the unauthorized channels by means other than denying warranty claims before they start denying warranties. They could simply make it no better for a dealer to buy 100 than if they bought 25, by giving all authorized dealers the same exact price after all bonuses, etc. Sell the same product through mass marketing channels for 10% or more cheaper to make sure there is no advantage for online dealers to get connected with local, authorized channels for the same product. Warranty each product differently because they are different part numbers with different sources. Then, educate the public as to what they are buying.

I think Denon is moving towards this aproach just like Yamaha has. Denon is just not doing a very good job of it. They are making mistakes like the 3803 is available but the 1083 equivelent isn't. Bottom line, Denon is already starting to tick off a few customers, and they are loosing sales because of it. If it wasn't for my persistance with an online authorized dealer, I wouldn't have gotten the 3803. They were only one phone call away from loosing my sale, so I know it's happening. I hope the Denon reps are paying attention and correct this. So far I'm thrilled at my Denon purchase, but I don't know that I would go through the same hassle again just to buy Denon.

 

[Phil Mays]

Jamey,

Unauthorized means no warranty to the consumer. My analogy, while not the best, was based on no guarantee offered not an "unauthorized" use of a logo. Completely different sceniero's.

I do agree with your second and third paragraph completely, which is what I was trying to get at all along. You did state it much clearer than I.

 

[Jamey F]

I'm flattered:b And, yes I do think we agree. It's only common business sense to offer all of the same product with the same features (including warranty, guarantees, etc.). Even though the benefits for buying locally, and almost every other point that has been brought up is valid, there is no reason to have "local dealer" products in the unauthorized "online channel" unless they are wanted there. THIS is the problem Denon has (in their opinion), and the way to correct it shouldn't have anything to do with the end customer. This is a business model problem, and so it should be handled at the business level before it gets to the customer if there is to be a solution at all. If not, what else could come out of it other than confusion. After spending years educating the customer base as to why you are a better company, confusion about warranty service is more devistating to the manufacturer than the local dealers being a bit miffed at the competition.

 

[AustinKW]

Neither one of you guys would last 5 minutes in business.

It's not about "miffing" or "confusing" customers. It's all about money - real money. The kind that feeds wives and kids, employees and their wives and kids, the federal, state and local governments and their dependents.

If you dump Denon, Pioneer has the same program for you. As does every other manufacturer except Apex. Hey, there's an idea! Why don't you guys snap up some nice Apex equipment?

Look, just follow the bucks from beginning to end. Eventually, you'll figure out the whys and wherefores of this and every other business.

Austin

 

[Jamey F]

It's not about "miffing" or "confusing" customers.

I was refering to Denon miffing dealers not customers. There is a HUGE difference as you have pointed out in previous posts. Dealers are denon's direct customers and not us. Of course it's about money. It should be because that's why Denon is in business.


Like I said, I was that last phone call away from dumping Denon for Pioneer. Yes, they are similar. Where they differ is the fact I have Pioneer dealers willing to offer the service I can't get from the only Denon dealers within 100 miles of me. Denon and all manufacturers better get their act together with these policies. There is a grey market for almost all items, and it has and is going to create real problems. I don't mind Denon's or any manufacturer's warranty policy if they are going to actually use it as the last step in a list of policies, but trying it up front is wrong. It seems Denon is just pushing thousands of units out the door to non-authorized sources OR sources reselling to non-authorized dealers without care. Then, in an attempt to protect the dealers from being undercut from internet sellers, they come up with this no warranty disclaimer. Denon and every dealer who does this MAY be better of in the short term (or even long term), but it's giong to tick off some people who don't know better (that's another discussion).

Of course, I'm sure there are good local Denon dealers with great perks worth paying more for, but they aren't near me. Is that my fault? Before you start telling me about how I won't last 5 minutes in business, talk to me about real value in Denon's policies, and how there isn't any for me and many others in my area. After all, isn't that what local dealers push instead of "real money"?

 

[Phil Mays]

Jamey,
You are making big assumptions. I have been very sucessful in business for 23 years. Yea, I have made bad decisions, but mostly good.
A sucessful long term business model is one that is far reaching into the future. In my business I could make a killing positioning myself for the short run with big markups and little service, however, I better save my money as that train will derail quickly. I have found that offering a great product at a fair price is important but the most important aspect of customer relations is standing behind what you sell.
Personally, I do not know how many times I have been "let down" by a product or service. That's not what's important. What is, is how the company handles the problem with a good solution. I'm a loyal customer if they do that. In the past 8 years I have bought 6 new cars. They all have had initial problems. I will not purchase another GM in my area as their service lags behing Ford and Jeep. Is that to say a GM is a worse car, of course not, just their service.

 

[charles mix]

I think the big problem here is the number of Models Denon sells that are identical to the lower line. If they limited production to one maybe two models of the same build, then this may not be a problem. Pioneer/Elite are not the same model out of the box, except the 811/41 model. They do use different parts on the upper line.
I would gladly pay more money from my local dealer, if I could get some extra service. my dealer is in the money business as well. My local dealer will not give me those extra perks that several people talk about. Denon is punishing those people who do not have Dealers in the area. Sure you could buy from the Authorized dealer online, but you may not get the customer support promised by the Authorized dealer.
I think the Car Business is the best business model for this type of situation. Toyota/Lexus Nissan/Infinity VW/Audi
just to name a few (I always confuse the Lexus/infinity thing). Many of their models are the same, except for the bells and whistles. I don't even get bell and whistles with a Denon product, what up with that?

 

[AustinKW]

Charles,

Good post!

Denon only "doubles up" on its lower end units. I believe the 3803/1083 is the line of demarcation. I have posted in the past and I continue to believe that Denon will begin to "decontent" the feature set of its current mass-market clones in order to futher separate the channels and differentiate the product.

I sympathize with your situation regarding your dealer. All dealers are definitely NOT created equal. If it's a location issue (you're in the sticks - dealer in the city), I doubt things will change. Simple matter of economics.

If, however, there are dealers of other manufacturers that DO provide stellar service in your area, I would encourage you to give them your business. I would also suggest that you call Denon's sales department (don't bother with customer service) and make them aware of your dealer's shortcomings, their competition's strength in your area, and your decision to support the competition rather than Denon due solely to their substandard dealer. This type of feedback gets results.

Good luck.

Austin

 

[Jamey F]

Phil, I didn't make the comment about you not lasting in business five minutes, Austin did.

Austin, first, I don't think we are in disagreement by many things you have said. My problem with Denon comes in when the listed "local dealers" of the Capital and the surrounding area of North Carolina only have 2 Denon 3803 units in stock. Both units are in the same store, and the other "local dealer" doesn't keep them in stock at all. The dealer with the 2 in stock wouldn't discount more than $50 off without buying an entire system. He offered no upgrade policy, or any other perks other than pick the unit up and leave with it. This isn't the sticks...this is the Capital AND the surrounding area. It also isn't value. Phil's car analogy about service is relevant here. How my Denon purchase through a listed authorized online dealer works out may determine whether I buy or recommend another Denon. After talking to the "local dealers" I couldn't recommend either, and I have purchased a 4.1 Pradigm setup and done just a little volunteer mp3 encoding work for one of them.

I've read of many people on the forum paying much less than retail at local shops with good upgrade policies, and other benefits worth paying more for. I'm envious. I just refuse to pay full retail or within a couple percent of it to get less service than an online dealer offers for roughly 20% off who is also authorized. That is of course, my choice and one Denon is allowing me to make (thank you Denon). I think Denon is doing a good thing by offering a list on the website for authorized online dealers. I used it. The problem is what happens to those who are lied to by online dealers as to whether or not they are authorized, and the customer dooesn't think ahead to look at the list. That is a seperate issue in itself, but my belief is Denon and/or local dealers are helping to create a problem and then trying to wash their hands of it. This is my primary gripe, and hopefully Denon is adressing this in other ways than just telling people they are SOL with their warranty. I believe in "buyer beware", but I also think manufacturers have a burden to carry.

I did purchase a 3803, and I did go through a dealer on their list. I am happy so far with the product and service, but I've owned it only a week or so. Denon did give me the alternative I needed, so I am grateful for that. Again my concern is that they do other things to make sure there product is being channeled correctly other than just denying warranties. Providing the list is a passive way. Of course, they could be doing many active things that aren't being seen. I hope so, if they are going to deny warranties.

 

[Phil Mays]

Sorry Jamey:b :b :b
If you want more Denon in the future and do not like your local dealer then perhaps a trip to Danville VA is in order.
Sounds Unlimited here has a wide selection of Denon product. They will also order product promptly if they do not have it. The manager has been extremely great to work with on trade-ups, etc.
They pretty much carry Denon, Yamaha, Klipsch, & B & W. In Video they carry Pioneer, JVC, and others.
It's hard to believe that a place like Raleigh with an MSA on 1.2 million people (or more)does not have much variety. For once Danville rocks Ugh, thats a joke

 

[Jamey F]

It's hard to believe that a place like Raleigh with an MSA on 1.2 million people (or more)does not have much variety.

Tell me about it. I called everyone on Denon's list under area code 919 (mid-eastern/central NC). 2 were the same number and the number was disconnected, one carries only a very small spcific line, and then the other two I mentioned before. Out of a total of 5 dealers if you count the one that is mentioned twice, there are a total of 2 Denon 3803's in stock. That's why if Denon wants to get business in my area (within 100 miles of the capital), they are going to have to have a decent internet policy. Their listed internet dealers offer good alternatives to people like me. However, if I was not as internet savy with electronics, I could have very easily purchased from a non-listed dealer and gotten shafted. I would think Denon will be working on the local dealerships that do offer great service. There are a couple that do offer upgrade plans and great loaning or return policies so the unit can be demo'd inhome.

 

[Dave Mack]

Quote..."The mass-market versions of the Denon products are CURRENTLY identical to the Authorized Dealer versions with the noted exception of the warranty period. Additionally, it is my understanding that the mass-market version is supported by Denon's factory warranty (1 year only) REGARDLESS of the source - Sears, mail order, Internet retailer or even eBay seller..."
This is confirmed, yes? I want to buy the 883 and can get it for $339 in Brooklyn. ALOT cheaper than the 1803 at THE WIZ...!
Dave

 

[Todd Christ]

isn't the Crazy Eddie price on the 1803 somewhere around $330? i know this isn't a price comparison forum, but they have a 2 year warranty for $59

 

[Dave Mack]

Hey Todd, I did see that, but I'd like to pick this up in person if possible so that if there was a problem, I could return it myself. Also, I think that you will get a 1 yr. warranty good from Denon for the 883... I wouldn't mind saving the $59. And if the warranty company went out of business....
Figure I'll snag this in the next couple of weeks. DTS, here I come, FINALLY!
D