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How many lines?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Jeff W., Jan 26, 2004.

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  1. Jeff W.

    Jeff W. Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm in the market for a 42-47" RPTV for about $1500. I want one that can do 1080i native though (meaning over 1000 lines res.)

    Best buy's web site says the Mistubishi WT-42313 has "1200 lines".. if they can be trusted.

    The Panasonic PT-47WX53 has only 850 so that's out...

    But Toshiba and Sony both do NOT list how many lines their sets have, so I'm wondering if anyone has this information, for their 42-46" models?

    Ie. Toshiba 42HX83 or 42H83, Sony KP-46WT510
     
  2. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    It's a game.

    Panasonic measures their number based on a square ... Mits does not.

    Take 850 and X 1.33 to the number and you get the same number as the Mits.

    Regardless of what any maker says ... they are all at about 1100 to 1300 lines ... that's it ... no more.

    Can you see the difference on a showroom floor between a 1200 line TV and a 1100 line TV ...? No. It's too subtle ... you need test patterns to see that type of difference.

    Regards
     
  3. John S

    John S Producer

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    I would not try to base my choice on this....

    The numebers reported by manufactures can be sway'd by testing criteria.

    Many just do not list them at all.


    Best of luck with it.
     
  4. Jeff W.

    Jeff W. Stunt Coordinator

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    What do you mean, a square? I'm talking about vertical scanning lines on the CRT. Not horizontal. It doesn't matter if the picture is square or wide-screen (but all these sets are widescreen anyway).
     
  5. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    ?? scanlines on a CRT are horizontal...
     
  6. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    What vertical scanning lines? TV's don't work like that.

    The lines scan left to right ...

    Do you know the difference between horizontal resolution and vertical resolution?

    Line specs like 1200 and 850 and 1600 are HRes specs ... not Vres specs.

    Proper way to measure/report hres is based on a square ... ht=width
     
  7. John S

    John S Producer

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    Thanks for that additional clarification Michael TLV, I never thought it about that way before.


    Makes it much simpler to envision it that way for sure.
    Even though that is most logical, I never really got it totally before.
     
  8. Jeff W.

    Jeff W. Stunt Coordinator

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    It scans from left to right, that's 1 line, then it moves down 1 line (or 2 for interlaced), hence it's called vertical scanning lines or vertical resolution, it's the total # of lines along the vertical axis (top to bottom).

    Hence if the tv has less than 1080 lines it can't do full-res HDTV (1080i).

    You're thinking of horizontal resolution, which can't really be expressed in exact #'s because it's analog. Although you can use testing methods (test patterns + sophisticated measuring equipment) - more often the horiz. resolution is expressed in Mhz bandwidth. But the vertical lines is an exact number, it's the number of lines the scanning beams draws before it returns to the top of the picture.
     
  9. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    If you care about vertical resolution ... why are you talking about panny's 850 lines or Mit's 1200 lines. They have nothing to do with what you are asking.

    They all do 1080i ... that's kind of a moot question.

    I don't know of one non hd set out there that claims to be HD.

    And then we get into the overlapping scan line issue ...

    Regards
     
  10. Jeff W.

    Jeff W. Stunt Coordinator

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    Guess I have to draw you a picture.

    This TV has 2 lines:
    [​IMG]



    This TV has 4 lines:
    [​IMG]


    Let's say we have a HDTV format called "4p" (4 lines, progressive). The first TV would not be able to display the full resolution image, it would "downconvert" or down-sample the 4-line image into 2 lines.

    THIS IS THE EXACT SAME situation you have with a TV that only has 700 or 800 lines and you try to view a 1080i (1080 lines, interlaced) signal on it. It "downconverts" or "downgrades" the 1080-line image into 700 or 800 lines or whatever it has.

    Now you get it?
     
  11. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    Jeff, you are confusing horizontal and vertical resolution. When a TV claims "800 TV lines of horizontal resolution", this is a measure of how many vertical black and white lines could be drawn across a circle inscribed in the set. Some manufacturers might measure across the entire width rather than adhering to the circle convention so it's difficult to rely on stated figures when comparing two sets. Horizontal resolution is a measure of how fast the display can cycle between black & white as it traces a scan line.

    The "1080" in 1080i is measuring along the other axis, the vertical axis, counting the number of scan lines. All the CRT HDTV sets are using 1080 scan lines, no matter what horizontal resolution they are claiming.
     
  12. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Whoa, you guys are all talking about different things. This thread is quite conlovuted/consufed. (yes consufed!)

    Added to figuring out whether you guys are talking about numbers of horizontal scanlines, or resolution in the horizontal plane, there is a distinct difference between electronic capabilities, and resolving capabilities. Very few sets can adequately resolve 1080 lines without overlap.
     
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