how important is 3-2 pulldown detection in a prog scan DVD player?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by jonathan rubin, Jun 16, 2002.

  1. jonathan rubin

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    I have a Sony XBR 400 TV & am looking for a prog scan DVD player. I found a Pioneer Elite that has digital progressive scan but doesn't do pulldown detection...does this matter?

    [also posted in the Basics forum]
     
  2. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    How important is accurate output?

    Don't buy a player without 3:2 pulldown.

    For < US$200 you can get a Panasonic RP-56, which does just about everything right.

    Regards,
     
  3. Jon Duke

    Jon Duke Stunt Coordinator

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    Jonathan...

    Doesn't your XBR have 3:2 pulldown? If it does, then you don't need to have a Prog scan DVD player.

    I've got the Hitachi 32UDX10S, which does 3:2 pulldown, and I'm trying to see how noticeable prog scan/non-prog scan DVD players are with a 3:2 pulldown TV.

    Good luck
     
  4. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  5. jonathan rubin

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    thanks-the xbr's after mine have pulldown; mine pnly has a line doubler.

    Is there a tangible (i.e., visible) difference in output between a player that does 3/2 pulldown detection versus a prog scan that doesn't (namely the Pioneer Elite C-36)?
     
  6. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  7. MikePilg

    MikePilg Auditioning

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    Jonathan,
    Michael's comments are very valid. The newer Sony XBR sets have Cinemotion which is their stab at 3:2 pulldown in the set. However, as Michael pointed out, if the detection and processing is done in the DVD player, everything stays in the digital domain.
    IMHO, a progressive scan DVD player needs to have 3:2 pulldown. It will make for a more filmlike experience with fewer motion artifacts.
    Personally, I really like the Denon DVD-1600. For the money it has it all and also has the Faroudja DCDi chip which further enhances the experience. I believe it is the only product at it's price level (~500) that includes the DCDi chip. The Panasonic RP-91K uses a lesser Faroujda chip, but still does a great job. It all depends on your budget. [​IMG]
     
  8. Matt DeVillier

    Matt DeVillier Supporting Actor

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  9. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    I'm a little confused as to the difference between 3:2 Pulldown Detection, and the actual processing...can someone explain the difference to me? Also...I recently purchased a Tosh 5700, because in the near future I'll be getting an HD set...does the Tosh feature 3:2 Pulldown Detection?
     
  10. Andrew_Ballew

    Andrew_Ballew Second Unit

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  11. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    I knew what 3:2 pulldown was...I just had never heard it referred to as 3:2 pulldown dectection. I'm I correct in thinking that they are both the same thing?
     
  12. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    The 3-2 pulldown is in the interlaced video.
    The player should build the progressive frames differently if this is a film source with 3-2 pulldown compared to live video where there is no 3-2 repeat pattern. Thus the need to detect the 3-2 pulldown.
    For source with 3-2 pulldown, the player always weaves consecutive fields to get full frames but sometimes it must grab the next field and sometimes it must grab the previous field to weave in, to assure always weaving fields that match. The 3-2 pulldown is still there in the finished progressive scan video.
    For live video, the player needs to interpolate parts of the picture (moving subjects) and weave other parts of the picture taking material from the next frame (stationary subjects). There are different strategies some of which are better than others. Some players do only interpolation when 3-2 pulldown is not sensed which results in a softer picture. Weaving yields a sharper picture but if the fields being woven don't match, the picture doesn't look as good.
    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/viddoubl.htm
     
  13. Andrew_Ballew

    Andrew_Ballew Second Unit

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  14. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    Okay...so I'm good to go on my 5700 then, right. It has an option in the setup for Film/Video/Auto, I believe...
     
  15. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

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    Right.
    Players do not need "detection" because they simply read the flag in the MPEG bitstream that says "this is film source" (and therefore 3/2'd) or "this is video sourced" (and only needs normal doubling from 30 to 60 fps)
    Want to see 3/2 pulldown tearing? Put the player in video mode and then play a film. Pretty awful.
    What that is giving you is the most basic doubling on a film source. Simply putting mismatched fields together. Frame 1 will be okay, Frame 2 a mix, etc. You know the deal. Look especially at moving edges and you get those jagged edges where line on one field aren't moved as far as the lines from the other field.
    Auto should be fine unless the MPEG encoding does not have the flag set for some reason (poor authoring).
    Now for something sitting on the ANALOG video streams to do this, DETECTION needs to be done. For the most part this will involve A/D conversion and then comparison of consecutive fields to look for the change in fields. If it sees that 3-2 pattern then it will buffer fields, put the proper fields back together, and then D/A them and ship them on out.
    That's why nice doublers cost so much. It's a hella lot easier to keep it in the DVD player where you are already digital, have the digital fields at your disposal, and are going to have to do the D/A anyway.
    PS - IIRC from my CE engineering days, there are methods for marking 3/2 on S-Vid streams that are different than with composite, component. I believe this is an area that people were looking for solutions in so either standards were modified or created with 3/2 in mind so that an analog flag could somehow be set.
    I recall a Faroudja IC having the ability to detect 3/2 on one stream but not the other, while a switcher IC that we were going to use could detect on the other type of stream. A real pain having to have different ICs basically doing the same work depending on the type of input.
    Someone that's more familiar with those 3 standards could probably expand on that or clarify any mistakes I made.
    Bottom line - once you've already made your signal analog it really sucks having to go back and look for something like 3/2. Just do it while it's still simple beforehand. [​IMG]
     
  16. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    Seth Paxton venturing into the hardware forums...now there's a sight [​IMG]
    Thx for the explanation though...when the "Stoney-Plex" is up and running, you're gonna have to come up [​IMG]
     
  17. Bill Slack

    Bill Slack Supporting Actor

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    Being able to read the cadence in software can be an important feature. A lot of DVDs are encoded incorrectly. Being able to detect this is a backup can make things look better (this is immediatley noticable with the basic Genesis chip v. the Faradjou)

    Yes, 3:2 pull down is important. Many TVs have 3:2 pull down support, but a good player than can do it in the digital domain is almost always going to be better.

    You should be able to buy a player better than the Elite 36 for around the same price. The Panny RP56 and RP91 are ~$160 and ~$400 or less, respectively.
     
  18. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    Can someone give me some definitive info on the Tosh 5700...or at least give me a link to some external FAQs. I'd like to know if it scales too...
     
  19. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

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    Bill is right, but remember that if something comes up funny looking while you are in auto mode you should be able to manually select the type of source since you will know what you are playing. [​IMG]
    I've had things come up wrong where I had to force it.
    That's why I suggested doing it wrong on purpose so you get an idea of what that mess looks like when it happens (incorrect int. to prog. conversion).
    Matt, all I know about Tosh currently is from my Tosh 3750. My main player is a JVC. So I probably know less about the 5700 than you. [​IMG]
     
  20. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

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    [​IMG]
    The only reason I don't know is because it's still pretty new, and I haven't had much of a chance to screw around with it yet. And of course I don't even have a prog scan TV to hook it up to ...yet [​IMG]
     

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