How good is the av12?

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by Mandy_P, Dec 3, 2003.

  1. Mandy_P

    Mandy_P Auditioning

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hello Everyone,

    I have been trying to decide on a sub for the last couple of weeks. I had finally decided on the SVS PC+, that was until I came across the av12 and the preorder. I broke down and ordered two, but the question is; now what? I've done some diy in the past. I have a DPL12 in a 16" sealed cube powered by a Tripath amp that was home brewed. Although it does add some level of sound for music it breaks down when asked to do HT at moderate levels. I realize the box is too small but it's what I had to work with given the space limitations. Would replacing the DPL with the av12 work better in such a small box?

    How good is the av12 compared to the svs? I was thinking of building a 3 cu ft. enclosures with the 15" 1400 PR. I'm also picking up the BFD this week. Amplification is still up in the air. I've considered using the Tripath again or buying the Samson S1000 or the Rythmic. After everyting is said and done I'll probably have a couple of dollars left over in comparison to buying the SVS. Is it worth it? Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

    TIA
     
  2. Frank Carter

    Frank Carter Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think you made a wise choice. John Janowitz said the AV12 is very similar to the db12 driver in the Plus series subs.
     
  3. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's almost like a dB12 with a Cast Frame. I would gather that the cone assembly is the same, though, and the motor is similar. I would imagine it's a little better, though. It has to be, somehow.
     
  4. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 1999
    Messages:
    4,948
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  5. Bryan Michael

    Bryan Michael Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i think the svs 12 has a 1-3 mm more excursin than the av 12 but that is not much. alot of the guys over at the club polk site have svs and they love them. so if the av12 is very similar i think you will love them get the samson and the bass box from svs. or go the 500 wat plateamp from parts express. pro amps dont have ss filters and phase control. i have dual av15 and i mean wow. also i have my ht in the basement so what i feel is pure bass not floor shake
     
  6. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hello,

    I have been asked to edit my information, so all comments are being edited out with regards to the SVS woofer. Stephen, I should have stuck with not divulging any info about the SVS driver, even though my data was correct.

    Here are the details on the AV12 woofer. If you would like to know the details about the SVS dB12, please contact SVS and you can compare for yourself.

    Our AV12 started out with the basic TC 2HP design. The gap plate, back plate, and T pole are all the same, but from there things were modified for our needs. The AV12 uses a 2.1" long copper coil. This gives roughly 20% more BL than the aluminum wire coil in the standard 2HP design. It's also much heavier giving more Mms. Suspension on the AV12 uses dual flat nomex spiders now to handle the extra mass. The magnet stack was deepened to give clearance for the longer coil, which also adds a small amount of motor strength.

    The AV12 has a 2.1" coil giving 21.7mm overhang. Xmax on the AV12 measures about 23mm.

    The AV12 will have slightly better power handling than the standard 2HP design with the shorter aluminum coil. The heavier wire used to get the lower impedance, and the fact that there is much more wire to begin with makes the difference. It's not anything too significant though.

    A 3cubic foot box with dual 1400gram PR's gives you a tuning right at 20hz and an F3 point of about 17.6hz.

    For subwoofer duty you want power and a high damping factor. The 350W Rythmik amp is a good option, but wouldn't fully take advantage of the potential of the AV12. The 500W PE amp may be a good option. Otherwise look into QSC or Crown amps for subwoofer duty. I still have not found anything better than the Crown K Series to power subs for HT use.

    John
     
  7. Stephen Hopkins

    Stephen Hopkins HW Reviewer
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,598
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good info to hear from John... odd that he wouldn't divulge the same info when i directly asked him via email a few months ago. At the time I was told that you couldn't reveal any details about the DB12 because it would upset SVS. Why the change in heart?
     
  8. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Stephen,

    I basically wanted to get my information correct about the SVS before I made any comparisons. I believe I have all the information correct. If not, I'm sure TV will let me know. :) Not at all trying to downgrade the dB12 driver.

    John
     
  9. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, SVS still probably makes the best value in commercial mass-produced subwoofers, but John fills a different niche in the market so he does not compete directly. I might wonder how the dB12 and the AV-12 compare in price due to the dB12 featuring a stamped frame.
     
  10. Bryan Michael

    Bryan Michael Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    what is damping factor? i have a samson and they drive my av15 good i dont think in the sub 22 hz range i dont get what i moddled when i bult my box but i guess you get what you pay for.
     
  11. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think 200 is a very high damping factor rating. It represents an output impedance of 0.04 ohm which would cause a tiny fraction of change in the Q of a subwoofer. Perhaps Samson amps don't sound as good as some other more expensive ones, but I don't know what damping factor would have to do with it.

    BTW, I have an amp with a damping factor of 200 driving the woofers in my Kit281s and the bass control is real good... I think better than a Tempest driven by a 250W plate amp. There may be a reason most plate amps don't state their damping factors... even though "low" ratings are nothing to be ashamed of. The 1KW Pass Labs amps have a damping factor of 60 at 8 ohms, and I haven't seen anyone complain about their bass quality.
     
  12. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The damping factor of the Crown K Series amps is 3000. Their reference series is something like 10,000. If you have the same sub and compare the Crown amp to the Samson you will hear a huge difference. I'm typically not one to state that things make an audible difference. Cables are cables, wire is wire, but in the case of powering a sub, amps are not all created equal.

    John
     
  13. Sebastian

    Sebastian Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2002
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  14. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But doesn't using (for example) 14 gauge wire instead of 12 gauge make the same difference as a damping factor of 200 vs. infinity?
     
  15. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, wire is wire as long as it can handle the same current and has the same resistance. 14awg vs 12awg is something that can be compared. You can easily put more current through a 12awg wire without losses than you can through a 14awg wire. Comparing two different 12awg wires to each other is really useless.

    In amps there are lots of other factors as well. The efficiency of the amp, how much power it puts out to the driver with relation to how much power is wasted in heat is a big thing. How reliable the power supply is and how quickly it is able to deliver power, etc. For the price of the samson, a little more money on a crown or QSC is well worth it. There are many reasons they have the reputation in the pro industry and samson doesn't.

    John
     
  16. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Comments edited out. As I stated above, if you want the full information on the dB12, contact SVS. All of my driver information is easily available so you can do comparisons for yourself.

    John
     
  17. Sebastian

    Sebastian Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2002
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    John,

    Oh yeah baby! now that's what I am talking about! What a steal!! I like the look much better than the steel baskets.
    Nothing wrong with lower extention and smaller boxes.
    Lower freq for me, smaller box for the wife. [​IMG]

    Can't wait until I get my AV-12MKII!
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Parker Clack

    Parker Clack Schizophrenic Man
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    12,220
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Real Name:
    Parker
     
  19. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, go over to any of the pro audio forums, http://www.live-audio.com/ or others. Ask about Samson amps and their reputation in general. Then ask about using them to power subwoofers. You will find that out of the hundreds of users there are many problems.

    For $459 for a Samson S-1000(500x2 at 4ohm) you could spend $60 less and get the QSC-RMX 1450 (450x2 at 4ohm) and have much more reliable power. Likely you can find them even less than $399. OR spend $40 more and get the QSC-RMX 1850HD (600x2 at 4ohm). I have actually seen the 1850 for less than the price of the Samson. Damping factor is not a whole lot higher than the Samson but the power is much more reliable and efficient.

    The other amp that works well and is relatively inexpensive is the Crown CE2000. Nobody in the industry matches the 3 year NO FAULT warranty Crown has. If you drop it down the stairs, it doesn't matter. They'll fix it. They even pay round trip shipping for the warranty work. The CE2000 is 660x2 into 4ohm. You can pick them up for right around $500 at many places.

    Finally if you do want to go inexpensive, stick with Crown and their XLS-402. It puts out 400x2 at 4ohm and sells for around $250. The XLS-602 sells for $299 and puts out 600x2 at 4ohm. For that amount of power, you can't beat that price or the warranty it comes with.

    http://www.123dj.com/amps/crown/xls602.html

    John
     
  20. ross ish

    ross ish Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Damping factor is like horsepower claims. Unless a specific frequency range is mentioned, it is impossible to compare this stat. Some companies with high damping factors use a higher freq as their measuring point. That is whay legitimate companies publish damping factor with a specified freq. A damping spec of 200>20hz is much more meaningful for sub application than a damping of 200> 100hz.

    Damping is the amps ability to control the driver; the higher the better. It is also an indicator about an amps interrelationship(sonic signature) with the speaker.
     

Share This Page