How do you listen to SACD 2-Channel? (1 Viewer)

[John Geelan]

thanks Steve, I'll check it out and report back.

 

[John Geelan]

Try that test I suggested above (set the Subwoofer Yes/No to No, and play something through the ICBM/6-channel input path) and let me know what happens. If you hear sub output, then the Denon *isn't* doing BM on that input.

Ok, I turned off the Subwoofer to No and put on DSOTM "Money" thru the 6 CH Input and there was no subwoofer action (the Velo stayed RED).

When I switch it back to the ON position, bass returned to the sub.

BM is a screwy thing as evidenced by the Denon 2900 controversy.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I think one of the bigger problems is the lack of standardized terminology. We all come in here with a good deal of knowledge about our own equipment, but then we have to figure out which terms are interchangeable between the Denons vs. the Sonys, etc. It makes things very difficult.

For example, when John says he sets all speakers to "LARGE" on his Denon 3300 (I'm presuming you mean "3800", right?), I'm left to wonder whether this is Denon's method of allowing an "analog bypass" or "direct mode" signal through. That is, does setting all speakers to "LARGE" mean that the signal in each channel bypasses all circuitry in the 3800? If not, then you're getting a "downconverted" lower-res signal; not a hi-res "pure" derived-from-DSD analog signal.

But I think your Sony Ce775 uses the same terminology as my Sony C555ES (and I'm also using an ICBM-1). If the bm circuitry is the same on your player and mine, then you should only be using the "Multichannel Direct" mode for multichannel and "Stereo Direct" mode for stereo. Don't use any of the other permutations, even "5 Large + Sub", as this passes the signal through the player's bm circuitry and degrades it. Alot. Like obviously noticeable to even my wife. And very noticeable to me.

 

[Steve_AS]

Ok, I turned off the Subwoofer to No and put on DSOTM "Money" thru the 6 CH Input and there was no subwoofer action (the Velo stayed RED).

When I switch it back to the ON position, bass returned to the sub.

OK, so the Denon 3300 (not the 3800, that was my typo) *may* be doing bass redirection on all inputs. However, there's one more test ;> It occurs to me that possibly the Sub Yes/No simply turns the input/output for the sub on or off, without affecting how bass is actually directed!

Basically you've got three two-option parameters at work in the receiver: Sub Yes/No, Front Speaker size, and Bass Output. That's eight possible combinations. Here's what I'm guessing *should* happen at every combination if there's bass management happening on the 6-channel input, and you play an stereo track through that input (assuming you have your SACD/CD player set to output a full-range signal -- speakers set to LARGE, subwoofer OFF, in the player). You can use these guesses to design tests. Comparing #1 and #3 might be most informative for you.

1) Sub YES, FrontSpkrs LG, BO SUB ONLY
Spkers get non-LFE bass info, sub gets LFE channel info.
Since a true stereo track has no LFE channel, the net result for stereo (NRS) is that the sub is quiet, and the fronts will have bass.
2) Sub YES , FrSpkrs LG, BO FRONT & SUB
Spkrs and sub both get bass + LFE info.
NRS: fronts and sub both have bass.
3) Sub YES, FrSpkrs SM, BO SUB ONLY
All bass + LFE directed to the sub.
NRS: bass from sub only.
4) Sub YES, FrSpkrs SM, BO FRONT & SUB
NRS:same as #3?
5) Sub OFF, FrSpkrs LG, BO SUB ONLY
NRS:same as #1?
6) Sub OFF, FrSpkrs LG, BO FRONT & SUB
NRS:same as #1?
7) Sub OFF, FrSpkrs SM, SUB ONLY
NRS: no bass
8) Sub OFF, FrSpkrs SM, FRONT & SUB
NRS: no bass

 

[Steve_AS]

But I think your Sony Ce775 uses the same terminology as my Sony C555ES (and I'm also using an ICBM-1). If the bm circuitry is the same on your player and mine, then you should only be using the "Multichannel Direct" mode for multichannel and "Stereo Direct" mode for stereo. Don't use any of the other permutations, even "5 Large + Sub", as this passes the signal through the player's bm circuitry and degrades it. Alot. Like obviously noticeable to even my wife. And very noticeable to me

Rather than being objectively 'degraded', it may be that the signal is simply have level changes and crossover applied to it that are different from that of the ICBM/receiver combo by themselves. Some players, for example, apply a -10dB cut to all subwoofer info, and apply differnt crossover slopes to SACD vs DVD-A material.

To test the BM capabilities of the *receiver*, I agree that you either have to use a player's 'direct' mode or set its speakers to 'LARGE' and its sub to OFF. You'd also have to disconnect any ICBM -like intermediates.

 

[John Geelan]

I do use only the DIRECT mode for the Sony CE775 whether using Stereo or Multi-Channel.

That we can all agree on.

For the time being I'm going to try the Denon 3300 Receiver as:

Front/ Large
Center/ Large
Surround/ Large (since I have these running into the ICBM) I'll let the full signal get adjusted inside the ICBM.



also Subwoofer/ ON
Bass Output/ Sub Only.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Guy Robinson]

It's pretty simple. I use the 6 channel analog mode on my 45a for everything. In stereo mode if there is not enough bass I put the mains on small and use the subwoofer. If there is enough bass I leave the mains on large. Simple.

 

[Steve_AS]

I do use only the DIRECT mode for the Sony CE775 whether using Stereo or Multi-Channel.

That we can all agree on.

For the time being I'm going to try the Denon 3300 Receiver as:

Front/ Large
Center/ Large
Surround/ Large (since I have these running into the ICBM) I'll let the full signal get adjusted inside the ICBM.

also Subwoofer/ ON
Bass Output/ Sub Only.

Looks to me like a winner for analog stereo (or multichannel), since bass is being summed and redirected to the sub channel by ICBM (effectively creating a '.1' channel to satisfy the needs of the Bass Out SUB ONLY and Front LARGE combo). If you listen via the 6/8 CH EXT IN of the Denon and the 6-ch out of the player it should sound fine. Good luck!

 

[John Geelan]

thanks Steve for your help.

 

[Lewis Besze]

I also use the 6 ch output on my Denon 2900 regardless of how many ch. being played.
I utilize the player BM for all modes except DVD-Video[that still goes through on the digital connection, BM handled via pre/pro].The Denon doesn't perform any DSD-PCM conversion at any stage that includes the BM[it doesn't provide TA for SACD],so there is no degradation,or "downmixing" at any time.If you set all speakers to large and sub to "yes",that would be the equilent of untouched signal or "direct" as Sony puts it.Selecting sub to "no" would fold anything recorded in the .1 channel,and that would equal to some sort of processing,since it wasn't recorded that way.