Horn Loaded VS Everything Else (1 Viewer)

[John F. Palacio]

"To my ears, "everything else" wins. I enjoy horns in much the same way that I enjoy the sound of a dozen screaming cats fighting in a room full of empty pie tins while being scolded by a flock of crows."
That is not your cup-of-tea, I take it?

 

[Alex F.]

Saurav:

Thank you for the heads-up. I'll check it out!

 

[Bob Brick]

Seems to me that ribbon tweeters have all of the good points of horns with none of the bad. Listen to a triangle, it takes forever to decay on a ribbon, and never sounds harsh to *my* ears.

But just like sound is affected by the room, it is also affected by the shape of the ear, and I suspect, the particular nervous system and brain of the individual listener. Some people can't seem to be able to name any of the instruments they're "hearing", except for drums and guitar. Others, we "golden ears", can tell not only the instrument but also which musician is playing it and what color underwear he was wearing that day.

If horns sound harsh to you, you're right. And if they sound perfect to somebody else, they're right, too. But it *is* fun to argue, huh?
(And *especially* fun to use parenthesees and astericks!)

 

[Evan Lee]

I own three pairs of Klipsch speakers, and a conventional set consisting of Madisound Cygnets. I purchased the Cygnets befor I got the Klipsch. I enjoyed their smooth frequency response and fatigue free sound. However, once I got the Klipsch speakers the Cygnets did cut it any more. The Klipsch maintained the Cygnets lack of lister fatigue and offered better dynamics, clarity, and can play considerably louder. When I first got the Klipsch they did sound like they had more top octave energy. I worried that they would be fatiguing over time. This did not prove to be the case. Last night, I was able to watch Underworld at reference level with absolutely no listener fatigue. Anyone who has this dvd knows how loud the mix on it is. An all of this took place in a room with the worst possible acoustics. Credit the horns for their controlled dispersion for making this possible. I think "horn fatigue" is just one of those things like DLP rainbows which some people experience and some people do not.

 

[Michael R Price]

"Seems to me that ribbon tweeters have all of the good points of horns with none of the bad."

What about dynamics? I listened to a few speakers with ribbons, they sound really clear and natural, but so far I think they're not much bigger or more effortless sounding than any regular tweeter.

 

[Tim Streagle]

For the record, Live bands use horns for several reasons;

1) Horns are very efficient. More dB per watt= less amp cost, weight.
2) Horns are generally robust and will take abuse better.
3) Horns have an entrenched image, a professional appearance.
4) Horns have an ability to "throw" a sonic image deeper into a room or crowd.
5) Horn drivers are generally easy to replace and spares don't take up much space. Diaphrams can be replaced independent of magnet structures.

Reason number 1 above is the primary one. I was a sound engineer in touring ensembles for many years and used (primarily JBL) horn loaded cabinets almost exclusively. I use planars in my home. Both have benefits and drawbacks. You must choose with your own ears.

 

[NicholasTS]

Flat frequency response is one of the things I go for as well as a flat EQ setting. Horns allow me to get the definition I desire in the high frequencies without having to enhance the frequencies from the output source introducing what I perceive to be audible distortion.

You know what though, forgive me if this is the wrong time to say this, but I can't stress it enough. People say it all the time. Choose what sounds good to you. Whether that's the $20 pair of KLH 652's or the $20,000 pair of JBL K2's, as long as you enjoy what they do between 20hz-20khz thats the pair that suits you.

 

[Robert AG]

Horns are extremely difficult to wrestle into a good home Hi-Fi reproducer, but it can be done. I have owned Altec Lansing A-7-500s since 1969, and I worked for Altec in the late 1970s and early 80s. I learned a lot about making horns sound good, among them being active bi- or tri-amplification, and tube amps which are a must, preferrably single ended triodes. Horns do not tolerate solid state amps at all.

There are almost no true horns being made nowdays outside of the professional market. What passes as a "horn speaker" these days is a conventional cone or dome speaker with a "horn" waveguide in front of it. The only true horn speaker is one that incorporates a compression driver.

Horns can generate dynamic quickness that other technologies can only dream of. The trick is to get rid of the traditional horn "forwardness" and "honk" - and this certainly can be done. It just takes work, and probably more money than an average hobbiest is willing to spend.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

As a bonafide audiophile. I did have my share of prejudice against horns. To me they sounded well... "horny" until I heard the Avant Guarde Trio. Once you have heard them you may have to prepare your arsenal of positive expletives.
A year after at a German show I heard the Acapella Campanile driven by Burmester gear. I ran out of positive expletives.
My personal reference speakers are the Magnepan 20.1. There is however an immediacy in horns that ones seem to only get from highly eficient speakers, which my beloved Maggies are definetely not. You can use any amplifier you fancy. With something such as the Acapella and their close-to-100 dB sensitivity, 10 watts fill a big room with sound. They usually tend to dominate the room. Especially the Acapella (Wow! Damn. Holy S*&$) and the Avant Guarde, their take on aesthetics may not be to some people liking. The Acapella IMHO posess next to the Maggie Ribbon the best highs in audio in term of purity extension and accuracy. Rather esoteric. They are ionic tweeter, horn loaded, they become blue when turned-on and it is not a light it is the tweeter what you see... eerie and rather cool. The moving membrane is ionized air !!Practically mass-less. Neither the Avant Guarde nor the Acapellas could by any stretch be called budget speakers... They are amongst the best speakers in the Hi-End universe IMHO.

The lesson: Hear it before you judge it. Horns can be good. It is a matter of execution.

Frantz
Port-au-Prince, Haiti

 

[Parker Clack]

I am with Robert AG on this one. The Altec A-7's are some of the best sounding speakers that I have ever heard. It is all about the use of a compression driver for the horn. I will never have this but I would LOVE to have my HT set up with A-7s all the way around.

JMHO and YMMV.

Parker

 

[Joseph Sabato]

Interesting thread.

For those who do not like "horn sound", don't go to a movie theatre or a live concert (orchestral music excepted) because you will definitely be listening to horns. That said, there is a wide variety in the quality of sound in those venues, from shreiking "in your face" to " I would like to have this in my house".

I am not a horn owner, but I would certainly not rule them out since I like the dynamics and ease at which they will play at high volumes.

I have owned Magnaplanar Tympani's, electrostatic speakers and a variety of cone/dome systems over the years. I enjoyed most of them while I owned them but they all had their pluses and minuses; it is a matter of finding a system that suits your budget and tastes at the time (which will definetly change over time).

 

[alan halvorson]

There is a point that I don't believe has been made (I've only scanned the posts so maybe I missed it) about horns. Horns should not be used outside their linear frequency range. Most horn speakers I have heard, including all Klipsch speakers (I owned the Klipschorn wayyyy back in the early 80's) violate this principle. Mostly, this priciple is violated on the low-end, at the transition from the midrange horn to the woofer. A horn intended to operate below 1000 Hz or so (probably higher) must, to prevent the "horn" sound, must of necessity be very large. Aside from the ultra-expensive Avant Guarde system, no horn speaker features a midrange horn of anywhere near adequate size.

Several years ago, before I settled on my current speakers, I auditioned both the Klipsch KLH 20's and KLH 30's at the same time. Each of these speaker used identical treble and midrange horns; the 30's had a pair of 12" woofers and the 20's, a pair of 10" woofers. Crossover point was higher on the 20's. I much preferred the 20's despite its reduced bass level; it wasn't even close. The KLH 20 was the more natural of the two models. I took the reason to be the higher crossover point. I thought both could be improved by adding a conventional cone midrange for the transition from the woofer to the frequency where the horn midrange was more linear.

So that's my explanation as to why many don't like speakers with horns. My view is that there is nothing wrong with horns, if they are used within their linear range and steeper crossover slopes (24 db/octave at least, 48 db/octave might be better) are employed.

 

[Michael R Price]

Alan, it is interesting that you say that because the KLF-30 is listed as having a slightly higher crossover frequency at 825Hz vs. 750Hz for the KLF-20. This was probably done to increase output capability on the KLF-30 while - I'm totally guessing here - it may have compromised midrange distortion and off-axis performance of the two 12" woofers. (It's probably more complicated than that but I don't really know what crossover design Klipsch used. There are a lot of other reasons the KLF-20s could sound better.)

 

[tonys55]

This is a great discussion. Horns have had a bad rap for many years for a number of reasons. For one, they are not as polite as some people would like. Considering that many horn loaded compression drivers operate in the most sensitive range of our hearing, I understand why people speak about honk, edge and so on. Yes, if the source material is in your face, the reproduction of the source material will be in your face. Go listen to a great Big Band and they will be in your face - without any help from a sound system. This level of dynamic impact is not something that can be closely re-created on anything but a speaker system that uses at least one compression driver that extends down into the upper midrange. Direct radiator, ribbon, and flat panel speakers are comparatively lame when it comes to dynamic impact. Further, when you try to mate a front loaded, direct radiating, low frequency, cone speaker with a horn loaded, high frequency, compression driver you have your work cut out for you. A front loaded, cone speaker does not stand a chance against a compression driver mated to a horn - so great care must be given to the integration of these components. A completely horn loaded system will give you great dynamic impact that is closer to real life than any other type speaker system. I feel that the horn loaded speaker system has a chance to make a strong comeback. Why? Because with the power of the microchip, horn design could be modeled like never before. Size considerations (read wife approval factor) could be the only thing that stands in the way - especially a fully horn loaded speaker system. I really hope that someone with the resources (like JBL!) will spend some real R&D money and take horn design to the next level. If you can maintain relatively close efficiency across all of the drivers and design horn enclosures that have a smooth, well-behaved response, I think everyone could enjoy a horn loaded system. From my personal experience as a live sound and multi-track recording engineer, I can appreciate most types of speaker systems. However, they all have their weak points. So no one touting their favorite design has the high ground here, just their own reality. As for me, I love a well executed speaker system in a setting that it was designed for.
Peace

 

[HeartFixr]

I have a pair of Altec model 19 and I understand the different points of view. These speakers are quite sensitive to the acoustic environment where they are used. If the room is too bright, the listening experience can be quite painful. In a properly acoustically treated room, however, these speakers can hold there own with anything.

 

[Greg Monfort]

1) For ones is Harsh is but for others is Clear
2) For ones Horns have "honk" sound for others the "honk" is only there in certain Horns.

No, 'harsh' is harsh and indicative of a poor horn design and/or implementation.
'Honk' is unfortunately often used to describe two different problems, the throat distortion of a high compression horn and/or the stepped response of a traditional hyperbolic, exponential or some flare type in-between the two (AKA 'hypex').
The only simple solution to the former AFAIK is to 'gap' the driver away from the horn to bleed off some pressure with the side effect of reducing efficiency gain BW.
The latter can typically be eliminated by adding CD (constant directivity) horn EQ which is some form of frequency shaping network to flatten it out, i.e. trading some efficiency for flat response over a much wider BW.
None of this is imply that all of the traditional horn 'sound' (AKA 'colored') is removed, so technically they still have some audible distortion no matter how euphonic it may sound to some.
For folks who want a horn's major benefits while still sounding like a direct radiator, then a properly designed compression loaded waveguide (WG) system is required. Since designing/building these are no trivial pursuit, probably the best available to the casual DIY kit builder or bang/buck finished speaker is Earl Geddes's 'Summa' two way designed for use with a sub system which is buried in this monster thread, though there is a search feature: diyAudio Forums - Geddes on Waveguides or skip all the tech and OT stuff and go to his website: Summa
GM