Podcast HomeTheaterUnited Podcast Episode 15 - Dave Upton on room correction and calibration with REW and Audyssey (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

Yes, it will be interesting to get Dave's take. On quick comparison here is what I see of interest.

Rythmik / SVS
Warranty == 2yr electronics,5yr drivers / 5 years unconditional
Free In-Home Trial == NO. Customer pays return shipping / Yes. 45 Days
Return Shipping == Customer pays / SVS pays
Service Method == Factory - Customer pays shipping/Insurance / Parts shipped free to customer
Support Method == Limited Phone/Email / Phone/Email/Chat
Web Site == Poor at best / Steller
Employees == 7 / 37


As for the actual subs, based on price anyway, the SB4000 would probably be the realistic competitor for the E15HP2. While I have never seen a sub in these price ranges with such an extensive control set as the E15HP2, I seriously doubt it would outperform the SB3000 or 4000 to the point of "putting them to shame." Not saying it isn't the better overall sub but it would have to be a whole lot better for me considering the price and anticipated support experience. At this point anyway, Rythmik would be a tough sell for me.

But seriously, I suspect the E15HP2 is very close to, if not matching the SB-16. I won't argue the difference in the companies. Rythmik I think it is fair to say has higher value, and that saves money. There's a $500 difference between the two subs, and that should buy you a lot of quality CS. I'm just naturally frugal, so I tend to lean toward the value brand, but I won't claim there is no difference in their CS.

 

[John Dirk]

Based on the below specs I honestly don't understand your conclusions unless you're seriously buying into their Direct Servo technology. Specs aren't everything but having never experienced either in-home, that's about all we have other than reviews.

Still, I see your overall point and agree, Rythmik likely gives you more bang for the buck as SVS must be spending a LOT on advertising and placement these days. Their products are also clearly designed for serious audiophiles and tweakers, which is a nice thing to see in the market, although it's a bit overkill for a sub in my opinion. Ultimately I would just be concerned about after-sales support with a company like Rythmik. If I've learned anything over the past couple of years it's sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

SVS SB4000
1200 Watts RMS [Peak - 4000 Watts] Class D
Freq Response 19 - 300Hz
102 pounds unboxed

Rythmik E15HP2
600 Watts RMS [Peak - Not Published] Class H
Freq Response 14 - ???Hz
104 pounds boxed

 

[JohnRice]

Trying to figure out a new sub is driving me crazy. About all I know is I will go sealed.


That is, unless I don’t.

 

[John Dirk]

To be fair, I just took a closer look at Rythmik's specs for this model and now see it is available in a couple of variants. The latter is a closer [on paper] match to the SVS and the customizable nature of Rythmic's subs is a strong plus. HSU also offers some customizable subs but not to this level.

Rythmik E15
600 Watts RMS [Peak - Not Published] Class H

Rythmik E15HP2
1000 Watts RMS [Peak - Not Published] Class H

 

[DaveF]

Trying to figure out a new sub is driving me crazy. About all I know is I will go sealed.


That is, unless I don’t.

My next sub will be sealed, simply because I need it compact.

 

[John Dirk]

My next sub will be sealed, simply because I need it compact.

If you're currently using a ported sub you might want to audition a couple of sealed models [if at all practical in these times] before making that commitment. They do have discernably different characteristics. I thought I was settled on sealed too but now I don't know. My mains go deep enough that I am rarely even using a sub for music anymore, and ported subs do tend to handle subsonic frequencies better. I found this very helpful.

 

[Sam Posten]

If you're currently using a ported sub you might want to audition a couple of sealed models [if at all practical in these times] before making that commitment. They do have discernably different characteristics. I thought I was settled on sealed too but now I don't know. My mains go deep enough that I am rarely even using a sub for music anymore, and ported subs do tend to handle subsonic frequencies better. I found this very helpful.

That was the argument that got me to go with the VTF-15h

VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofer

Status Update: Discontinued. The VTF-15H MK2 has been replaced by the new VTF-TN1. Please click here for more information. The VTF-15H MK2 is our flagship and highest-performing subwoofer designed for the ultimate home theater experience. With its exceptional capabilities, the VTF-15H MK2 stands...

www.hsuresearch.com

No regrets, but I bought it without an audition and my lizard brain always wondered if I would make the same call if I had heard a similar sealed one in the same price range if I had the luxury of testing out both.

 

[DaveF]

I’ll check out the video. But the HSU won’t fit my space, for example. The SVS SB16 Ultra does. That’s the kinda trade I’ve got in mind.

This is all in flux. I will really dig into it this fall and start making $ decisions when the pandemic is easing and I’m comfortable going to Phase 3 of my 4k upgrade.

 

[JohnRice]

In general, I find the minuses of sealed subs preferable to the minuses of ported ones. Then again, as you go up in offerings the minuses of sealed ones start disappearing (think Seaton SubMersive) as the size and price goes up.

The only thing I genuinely dislike about my ported SVS is when a movie takes it beyond its capabilities and it starts making physical noises (chuffing, even rattling on occasion) and you just don't get that with sealed models.

 

[John Dirk]

In general, I find the minuses of sealed subs preferable to the minuses of ported ones. Then again, as you go up in offerings the minuses of sealed ones start disappearing (think Seaton SubMersive) as the size and price goes up.

The only thing I genuinely dislike about my ported SVS is when a movie takes it beyond its capabilities and it starts making physical noises (chuffing, even rattling on occasion) and you just don't get that with sealed models.

Our subs were awesome for their day but preceded onboard DSP and likely several other improvements common in more modern designs across the spectrum. I'm now wondering if a ported model might be a better overall fit for me. I'm also reconsidering dual subs as I really only care about one seating position, namely mine. In the rare instances when I do have guests they are plenty impressed and do not concern themselves with the things we do on this forum. Going with a single sub would allow me to move up to a higher tier and, if I decided I wanted another one, I could always add it later.

 

[Dave Upton]

In general, I find the minuses of sealed subs preferable to the minuses of ported ones. Then again, as you go up in offerings the minuses of sealed ones start disappearing (think Seaton SubMersive) as the size and price goes up.

The only thing I genuinely dislike about my ported SVS is when a movie takes it beyond its capabilities and it starts making physical noises (chuffing, even rattling on occasion) and you just don't get that with sealed models.

Well put. The most important thing to consider about ported subs is really what you listen to. Generally speaking, music listeners will prefer the character of a sealed sub, and theater/TV content watchers will be happy with either.

Both designs have their trade-offs.

The group-delay of a ported sub is inherently higher as a result of the port, but should still be below the threshold of audibility.

You can read more about that here: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/10-nonsense-myths

 

[Dave Upton]

Our subs were awesome for their day but preceded onboard DSP and likely several other improvements common in more modern designs across the spectrum. I'm now wondering if a ported model might be a better overall fit for me. I'm also reconsidering dual subs as I really only care about one seating position, namely mine. In the rare instances when I do have guests they are plenty impressed and do not concern themselves with the things we do on this forum. Going with a single sub would allow me to move up to a higher tier and, if decided I wanted another one, I could always add it later.

Just remember that even with a single "sweet spot" 2 subs can often achieve a better response. That will very much depend on your room. If you can get a single sub to measure relatively flat at your LP without tremendous effort or crazy placement, you definitely would be best served by getting a better sub.

Output wise, you should be fine no matter what.

One option to consider that can be really great, is to put the sub directly behind or near your seat, as that can add some nice tactile impact you don't get with the sub farther away in a corner. This is called nearfield subwoofer placement.

To do this well, you have to ensure your seats aren't in the middle of the room. Often, if your seating is 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back however, this can end up getting a really nice in-room response with the benefit of more impact. This will depend on your exact room dimensions, so run your room through this tool to see where the modes are:

amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator

HTML5 room mode calculator. Read and hear the tune of axial, tangential and oblique modes. Scientific sources included.

amcoustics.com

 

[John Dirk]

To do this well, you have to ensure your seats aren't in the middle of the room. Often, if your seating is 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back however, this can end up getting a really nice in-room response with the benefit of more impact. This will depend on your exact room dimensions, so run your room through this tool to see where the modes are:

My sub was positioned directly behind my main seat before. I moved it to a front corner a couple of months ago [unfortunately before my UMIK-1 was ordered] and it seems to perform better in that spot. My front row seats are basically in the middle of the room so that's likely why.

Well put. The most important thing to consider about ported subs is really what you listen to. Generally speaking, music listeners will prefer the character of a sealed sub, and theater/TV content watchers will be happy with either.

I've been turning my sub off for music since purchasing the Focus SE's which is why I'm now pondering whether or not to go with ported or sealed. If output isn't a major concern them I'll probably stick with sealed as they are generally less expensive and also smaller. Again, I can always add a second one down the road if need be. I've looked at a lot of subs lately but am narrowing in on the SVS SB 4000 as I cannot imagine it not having ample output for my 1800 CU FT room.

 

[JohnRice]

I’d really like to know @Dave Upton ’s feedback regarding the SVS SB-4000 and 16 vs similar Rythmik models.

 

[John Dirk]

Here's a thorough sealed vs ported discussion from Audioholics.

 

[Dave Upton]

I’d really like to know @Dave Upton ’s feedback regarding the SVS SB-4000 and 16 vs similar Rythmik models.

They're all great options.

SVS is way ahead in terms of tech - their app lets you adjust all the sub settings via bluetooth which is incredibly nice.

I think Rythmik probably has SVS beat in terms of pure sound quality for music (lower overall distortion between 30Hz-100Hz), and their servo tech is really great.

For home theater use, I don't think you can go wrong either way. I'd probably steer you to SVS for convenience/overall package quality and size efficiency, but Rythmik for the best sub dollar for dollar if you don't need those features.

Then again, if you want a sub that will beat both, save up and get a Seaton

Seaton Sound SubMersive HPi+ Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The HPi+ runs on 240 volts. I requested this because I wanted to know what the subwoofer can do when it has maximum wall voltage supply.

hometheaterhifi.com

 

[JohnRice]

They're all great options.

SVS is way ahead in terms of tech - their app lets you adjust all the sub settings via bluetooth which is incredibly nice.

I think Rythmik probably has SVS beat in terms of pure sound quality for music (lower overall distortion between 30Hz-100Hz), and their servo tech is really great.

For home theater use, I don't think you can go wrong either way. I'd probably steer you to SVS for convenience/overall package quality and size efficiency, but Rythmik for the best sub dollar for dollar if you don't need those features.

Then again, if you want a sub that will beat both, save up and get a Seaton

Seaton Sound SubMersive HPi+ Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The HPi+ runs on 240 volts. I requested this because I wanted to know what the subwoofer can do when it has maximum wall voltage supply.

hometheaterhifi.com

Dave, on the dual sealed sub front, like SB-16s, what do you have to say about stacking them, facing forward, or what about stacking with them facing sideways in opposite directions? As in, one on top of the other with one facing right and the other facing left. I'm just trying to identify placement options for my room. As large as the room is, the front is rather crowded.

 

[John Dirk]

Then again, if you want a sub that will beat both, save up and get a Seaton

I anticipated this response and actually did seriously consider Seaton. There is a great deal on the Submersive HP+ package out there but, unfortunately, they're located in Minnesota. Even if they were proximal, personally, I would still likely go with SVS for the reasons you specified and also their Customer Service. I've owned many SVS products over the years and their support and service have always been excellent, even years after the sale.

I've never dealt with Seaton, so for all I know, their support experience may be similar. If they offered something on par with the SVS control app, I actually might have gone with them but I hate having to get up every time I want to make an adjustment on my sub, so that app is a big deal for me.

I also don't doubt that Rythmik makes great subs but their web site is just horrendous and I would be concerned about long-term support issues with them as their return/warranty statements contain a fair amount of disclaimers.

 

[John Dirk]

Dave, on the dual sealed sub front, like SB-16s, what do you have to say about stacking them, facing forward, or what about stacking with them facing sideways in opposite directions? As in, one on top of the other with one facing right and the other facing left. I'm just trying to identify placement options for my room. As large as the room is, the front is rather crowded.

I have the same problem. I plan to solve it by racking my amps and Pre/Pro in an adjacent room and running the speaker connections through the adjoining wall. This will free up the space I need for dual subs.

 

[Dave Upton]

Dave, on the dual sealed sub front, like SB-16s, what do you have to say about stacking them, facing forward, or what about stacking with them facing sideways in opposite directions? As in, one on top of the other with one facing right and the other facing left. I'm just trying to identify placement options for my room. As large as the room is, the front is rather crowded.

One of the main reasons for dual subs is to combat room modes and nulls. By colocating the subs, you are giving up that advantage for any axial modes.

So for that reason, I strongly recommend placing them in different spots in the room. Dr. Toole did some great research on this and found the best locations for multiple subs were as follows:

I generally tell most folks to go with one of the top 2 on the right, in the corners or on opposing corners. If you want to read the whole presentation, check out the attached PDF.