What's new

Home Theater United Episode 21 - Display calibration with Tyler Pruitt and Gregg Loewenn (1 Viewer)

Sam Posten

Moderator
Premium
HW Reviewer
Joined
Oct 30, 1997
Messages
31,840
Location
Aberdeen, MD & Navesink, NJ
Real Name
Sam Posten


Special Guests: Tyler Pruitt of Portrait Displays (Calman) and Gregg Loewen of LionAV / Professional Video Alliance

Gregg and Tyler are on to discuss their work helping consumers get the most out of their displays, from monitors to flat panels to projectors.

  • What’s the takeaway on calibration these days? Is is any easier for a lay person to get good results?
  • What should enthusiasts look for in a calibration service? How can they decide to do it themselves vice getting professional help?
  • Is Apple’s effort to build in calibration a gimmick or the real deal? Isn’t it better to calibrate at the display than the player?
  • How has the introduction of HDR into the mix changed calibration?
  • What’s the deal with all the HDR standards? Should we care about anything besides HDR10 and Dolby Vision?
  • Can home projectors ever compete for accuracy again in an HDR world?
  • Do we -really- need displays capable of 1000 nits or more to get ‘real’ HDR?
  • Bias lights seem to have faded as a big deal, do you guys still recommend them? Are people still putting them in?
  • Any thoughts on 3D or High Frame Rate from a calibration perspective? How about gaming?
  • Where do you stand on streaming? Do streams benefit significantly from calibration? Are streams viable from an accuracy perspective?
  • What do you wish people understood about your job better? What would make calibrating their theater better?







 

DaveF

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2001
Messages
26,715
Location
Catfisch Cinema
Real Name
Dave
Watched the trailer for Rubber. There is no living down making a spouse watch that.
Embarrassed Shame GIF
 

DaveF

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2001
Messages
26,715
Location
Catfisch Cinema
Real Name
Dave
The conversation turned briefly to a topic that I feel has not been given its due on the forums, and perhaps could be given some attention on a future podcast: the upgrading of movies with new audio mixes and HDR visuals.

During the transition from VHS to DVD, "OAR" (Original Aspect Ratio) was a foundational belief. The preservation of film as originally presented was -- and still is -- in the HTF mission statement (emphasis added):

Mission Statement​

The Home Theater Forum is a place where those who enjoy watching movies in their homes can discuss all aspects of (re-)presenting films the best way they can. These discussions concern the film art itself, its products as well as the technical ways to create a theater-like experience inside a home.

We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended. We respect the integrity of all artists involved in creating the original film as well as those who helped bringing the product to a form suited to be used in a home theater environment.

The main goals of the discussions on the Home Theater Forum are to learn and to share: to learn more about the cinematographic art-form and the best techniques to present the films, and to share our knowledge with anyone who sincerely wants to benefit from the knowledge of his or her fellow members.

Discussions on this forum are polite, cordial and respectful. We do not hesitate to express our opinion on matters involved, knowing other members may or may not share those opinions. We will always respect opinions of other members, even if we do not share a particular opinion ourselves. We will not verbally attack other members in a personal way, but instead try to contribute to the common knowledge about, and understanding of all applicable topics discussed.

Currently we acknowledge DVD and Blu-ray as the main, most advanced and most important media for films and TV shows to be (re-)presented in our homes. We certainly will not exclude other suitable media from our discussions, however. We strive for the highest achievable quality (video and sound) to be recorded on disc, to be sold and/or rented in a form free for consumers to use in their homes. We want to advance films and TV shows to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image and soundtrack, as intended by the original creators, intact. We want the best soundstage obtainable in a home environment.

We strive for as many films and TV shows as possible to be available on such high quality discs for both sale and rent. Therefore, we loathe infringements on author rights and oppose the existence, promotion and sale of bootlegged and other infringing product.

We like others to take pleasure in what they apparently do like. We will never post with the sole intention to spoil other's pleasure. On this Forum, we want to feel at home and make each other feel at home.


In summary:
  • We're about community. We are a like-minded but diverse group of individuals who share a common passion for all things relating to Home Theater.
  • We're about movies. Our goal is to enjoy the movie-going experience at home, without sacrificing artistic integrity. We expect the original film and sound formats to be preserved on home video, and embrace the home video formats (like DVD) that allow this to be possible.
  • We're about hardware. Do you have the latest new piece of equipment out on the market? Do you want to compare your products against others? Do you want to ask information on a product before making that big purchase? Here is the place to do so and more.
  • We're about courtesy. We are not a "no holds barred" news group. You are expected to conduct yourself in a courteous and professional manner on Home Theater Forum. Administrative staff works 24/7 to ensure this.
  • We're about family. You are as likely to read about someone's new baby, job, or house as you are their new satellite dish, television, or DVD purchase. We have designated areas where you can talk about a wide range of topics. But our focus is--and always will be--Home Theater.

But this seems to have been abandoned by the fans and enthusiasts, and increasingly so with the advent the 4K format, with the greater excitement for discarding the original presentation and embracing Atmos and HDR presentations that were not forseen by the original filmmakers 40 years ago.
 

Sam Posten

Moderator
Premium
HW Reviewer
Joined
Oct 30, 1997
Messages
31,840
Location
Aberdeen, MD & Navesink, NJ
Real Name
Sam Posten
But this seems to have been abandoned by the fans and enthusiasts, and increasingly so with the advent the 4K format, with the greater excitement for discarding the original presentation and embracing Atmos and HDR presentations that were not forseen by the original filmmakers 40 years ago.

I disagree with this way of thinking entirely, Mr Harris seems to disagree and the industry disagrees. If you follow your line of thinking to it’s logical conclusion you wouldn’t color correct OCNs nor remove dirt and scratches.

manipulating color timing and adding HDR passes are giving old movies new life by presenting them in the best light (heh) while still preserving directors intent. Using their own input where possible and with input from production partners where not.

like anything you can overdo it. And with noise reduction they did, fans complained and we are doing better overall today. No such outrage has been seen wrt HDR and if you are opposed to it you can simply watch it in SDR on your own system.
 

Josh Steinberg

Premium
Reviewer
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
22,997
Real Name
Josh Steinberg
The conversation turned briefly to a topic that I feel has not been given its due on the forums, and perhaps could be given some attention on a future podcast: the upgrading of movies with new audio mixes and HDR visuals.

During the transition from VHS to DVD, "OAR" (Original Aspect Ratio) was a foundational belief. The preservation of film as originally presented was -- and still is -- in the HTF mission statement (emphasis added):



But this seems to have been abandoned by the fans and enthusiasts, and increasingly so with the advent the 4K format, with the greater excitement for discarding the original presentation and embracing Atmos and HDR presentations that were not forseen by the original filmmakers 40 years ago.

I think there is definitely something to that and I can’t help but think of that every time someone posts that they’re not going to buy a new release of a classic film (or even a newer film) because it hasn’t been remixed to a newer, more advanced format. As an example of the former, I think some people had stated they weren’t going to buy “Speed” on UHD because it wasn’t remixed for Atmos, and as an example of the latter, there were complaints when Christopher Nolan’s catalog came to UHD with the same 5.1 mixes that played in theaters - not everyone was satisfied with the explanation that Nolan himself doesn’t like Atmos.

I don’t really care if new mixes are included but given how little space an extra audio track takes up on a disc, there’s just no reason not to include original audio as an option.

HDR is a little trickier because raw film elements are capable of containing more detail and color than the old SDR color space allows. If HDR is being used as a tool to more accurately render on disc/digital what was present on the original film, that strikes me as a good thing. But if HDR is being used to give a film a radically different look that’s not faithful to the original intent, that’s not good. Same with more recent films that were completed digitally with a DI - there’s some nuance that would get lost in the conversion from a 2K or 4K theatrical DCP to a consumer HD format, and if that can be preserved in a new HDR version, great. But if it’s about making the film look different than it always has, less great.

I always come back to this old analogy I used to hear growing up: some people buy a stereo to play their records, other people buy records to play their stereo. I don’t think that’s ever disappeared. And as long as the buying audience is split into those two camps, home media producers will make choices that will sometimes please one camp at the expense of the other.
 

DaveF

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2001
Messages
26,715
Location
Catfisch Cinema
Real Name
Dave
I disagree with this way of thinking entirely, Mr Harris seems to disagree and the industry disagrees. If you follow your line of thinking to it’s logical conclusion you wouldn’t color correct OCNs nor remove dirt and scratches.

manipulating color timing and adding HDR passes are giving old movies new life by presenting them in the best light (heh) while still preserving directors intent. Using their own input where possible and with input from production partners where not.

like anything you can overdo it. And with noise reduction they did, fans complained and we are doing better overall today. No such outrage has been seen wrt HDR and if you are opposed to it you can simply watch it in SDR on your own system.
I'm not being clear then, as I'm not taking a position to dis/agree with -- except asserting this is a trend that hasn't been given any real consideration in the enthusiast community (not the way such things hashed out 20-some years ago).

It's happening. Good bad or ugly. Films are being made into HDR. Stereo or 5.1 soundtracks are mixed up into Atmos. It's bigger, louder, brigher, colorier, more fun. But I've not seen much or any discussion about how this fits with, say, HTF's mission of artist's vision or prioritizing original presentation.
 

DaveF

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2001
Messages
26,715
Location
Catfisch Cinema
Real Name
Dave
HDR is a little trickier because raw film elements are capable of containing more detail and color than the old SDR color space allows. If HDR is being used as a tool to more accurately render on disc/digital what was present on the original film, that strikes me as a good thing. But if HDR is being used to give a film a radically different look that’s not faithful to the original intent, that’s not good. Same with more recent films that were completed digitally with a DI - there’s some nuance that would get lost in the conversion from a 2K or 4K theatrical DCP to a consumer HD format, and if that can be preserved in a new HDR version, great. But if it’s about making the film look different than it always has, less great.
But can/did film projection achieve HDR and wide color gamut that movies are being converted into? Film records with a logarithmic response, akin to human vision. But does historic, lamp-based projection realize that?

There's perhaps the argument, as with animation, that this renders it as it should have been if this technology existed decades ago.
 

Josh Steinberg

Premium
Reviewer
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
22,997
Real Name
Josh Steinberg
But can/did film projection achieve HDR and wide color gamut that movies are being converted into? Film records with a logarithmic response, akin to human vision. But does historic, lamp-based projection realize that?

To a certain extent, sure.

The thing with HDR is that it doesn’t need to be used at the equivalent of a Spinal Tap “11”. It’s just a wider range that things can exist within than the previous range available to home video. If a piece of film had more information than the old video color space could translate, but the new HDR color space can, it’s great to use that expanded capability to better capture what’s on the film. It can be true that a modern scan plus modern mastering can reveal more of what’s on the film negative than what audiences originally saw, but that sort of translation issue has always been present in various formats. Even with DVD we’re sometimes seeing more detail than was present on original film prints, and it can be a real conundrum over what’s “correct” - do you try to extract every last thing out of the negative from films made in eras where the filmmakers built it into their working process that not everything on the negative would be seen by audiences?

I’m not sure there’s a single objectively right answer to any of this, especially when you consider that filmmakers and studios have freely adapted the presentations of their films over the years to capitalize on whatever could bring them a return on their investment. In that sense, touching up these films for HDR and surround audio follows a century old tradition of repurposing film for how its being enjoyed now.
 

Sam Posten

Moderator
Premium
HW Reviewer
Joined
Oct 30, 1997
Messages
31,840
Location
Aberdeen, MD & Navesink, NJ
Real Name
Sam Posten
But I've not seen much or any discussion about how this fits with, say, HTF's mission of artist's vision or prioritizing original presentation.


I don’t know what could be discussed. These releases are all director approved for how their film should look and sound where possible, and with artists who were part of the team where not. It’s their call. It’s their vision. And nothing is be lost in the process. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Forum Sponsors

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
350,661
Messages
4,926,004
Members
142,881
Latest member
postbox
Recent bookmarks
1
Top