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Hollywood ruining film prints on purpose (those red dots you're seeing)

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Vince Maskeeper, Oct 6, 2003.

  1. Vickie_M

    Vickie_M Producer

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  2. Vickie_M

    Vickie_M Producer

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    They were in the Extended version of The Two Towers too. I first started noticing them about the time Aragorn goes off the cliff, and then again several times over the next 5 or so minutes, with Arwen and Brego the Wonder Horse, and Arwen and Elrond. At least there weren't any on Arwen's face! I really tried hard to not see them. Knowing that they'd be in a light spot, I forced my eyes to focus on a dark spot in the scene. Trying not to see them is almost as bad as seeing them. Either way, I wasn't WATCHING THE MOVIE.

    What pisses me off even more about these things is that, now that my eyes are attuned to seeing them, that is, seeing something in the scene that isn't supposed to be there, I find I'm noticing the reel-change markers much more often now, because it's something in the scene that doesn't belong there, and I do a mental wince every time one comes on the screen. F*cking Hell!

    I know, my bitching's boring. They're counting on it.
     
  3. JustinCleveland

    JustinCleveland Cinematographer

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    Vickie, your bitching would only be boring if it were a trivial matter. The fact is that they are intentionally marring prints, and it's very noticible. In a day when we have to beg theaters to take care of their movies, (and I just saw Master and Commander last weekend, and it looked flawless other than the glaring dots in the fog scenes), the studios are destroying the movie-going experience.

    On an off question, what theaters do you frequent in the Chicago area? I am looking for some good ones when I'm down visiting my girlfriend's family, and when I intend to move down there next year.
     
  4. Vickie_M

    Vickie_M Producer

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  5. JustinCleveland

    JustinCleveland Cinematographer

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    My fiancee's family lives on the south side, and in the suburb of Burbank, so that's the area I'm familiar with, but I've got an application in to grad school at Northwestern, and so this info's going to come in handy. Thanks!

    On topic... The dot's suck! [​IMG]
     
  6. Adam_S

    Adam_S Producer

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    I saw my first dots tonight. At the arclight's showing of the TTT Extended edition. I didn't notice them until just before the Warg battle with all the arwen aragorn stuff the more ethereal photography made them glaringly glaringly obvioius! gah! they pissed me off so much, especially one that WAS in the middle of Arwen's cheek.

    -ing bastards, ANYONE, ABSOLUTELY ANYONE CAN BUY THIS SUCKER ON DVD. LEGALLY! WHAT IS THE BLASTED POINT DOING THIS FOR THIS MOVIE!!! WHAT KINDA IDIOTIC PIRATE IS GOING TO ATTEMPT TO VIDEOTAPE IT WHEN THEY CAN GET A MUCH BETTER SOURCE TO COPY FROM BY GETTING THE ACTUAL DVD!

    Adam
     
  7. Jason Whyte

    Jason Whyte Screenwriter

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    Here are some dots and explanation on the two CAP (CRAP) code formats out today, with an explanation of each below:

    [​IMG]

    This above image is taken from a 35mm scope 2.39 print of Once Upon A Time in Mexico, with my own personal marking pointing straight to the offending code. This coding system comes from Deluxe, and currently it appears that ALL Deluxe printed films contain this coding through one reel only (approximately 20 minutes of a film, give or take the actual length of the reel). Note that the "T" marking in this particular frame is only one of their designs; there can be other shaped markings throughout the reel. Also, while I have only posted one frame here, the code markers are normally spread across 2-3 frames. So much for subliminal!

    Other films that have used this code: Underworld, Kill Bill Vol. 1, Lord Of The Rings: Return of the King and both extended rereleases, Elf, Underworld, Freddy Vs. Jason, The Rundown, School Of Rock, Pieces Of April (!), Scary Movie 3, etc.

    Studios that have recently printed with Deluxe: Columbia/Screen Gems, New Line, Miramax, United Artists, Universal

    [​IMG]

    Here is the less intrusive coding system that is being used by Technicolor Labs (TES). This is taken from a scope 2.39 print of Seabiscuit. Note how the small, yellowish markings are spread throughout the frame to make it look like a print defect. This process repeats through 1 or 2 frames just like Deluxe's coding.

    Other films that have used this code: The Last Samurai, Looney Tunes Back In Action, Love Actually, Gothika, Timeline, etc.

    Studios that have recently printed with Deluxe: Warner Bros, Universal, Paramount.

    I was asked earlier about how this info is found out. Good advice is to keep an eye on the forums at film-tech, especially under the "Feature Info and Trailer Attachments" section, which describes all of the necessary print information (reel numbers, labratory, sound formats, aspect ratio, etc).

    Anyways, I hope this helps.

    Jason

    Note: I was unable to perform a 2x stretch on these pictures to show how these look on a proper 2.39 screen. If anyone has the ability to stretch these images, please let me know so I can post them here.

    Thanks to film-tech.com btw. [​IMG]
     
  8. Darren_Reed

    Darren_Reed Extra

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    Wow that's some crazy acne on Tobey's face there! [​IMG]
     
  9. Michael St. Clair

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    I can certainly see a day when I don't go to the theater any more, but I hope it doesn't come to that.

    How much money the studio gets isn't a factor; when the 'damage' is such that I cannot enjoy the film, it is not worth seeing in the theater for free.

    I hope that independent and foreign films remain free of the garbage, but so many indy/import releases have big studio distribution...

    The sad thing is how little the online film fan crowd is mobilized against this. DivX would have died anyway, it was a stillborn idea from the beginning...yet so many people rallied against the lame format that was never a true threat to open DVD. Yet here is a genuine, intentional assault on quality projection today, and so few people seem to truly care.

    The only way the studios might stop is if this decision starts hitting them in the wallet...or pirates completely overcome it (pattern recognition algrithms are definitely the right starting point...the Technicolor process will proably be harder to programmatically detect than the Deluxe process, though).

    Oh, and this will be much easier to do with digital projection, even if they aren't yet. In fact, the projection software could easily be updated to display different codes during each exhibition - making the bootlegs traceable to not just a theater, but an actual screening).
     
  10. MatthewLouwrens

    MatthewLouwrens Producer

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    I went to Underworld last night - didn't really want to, but was invited, and it was a cheap screening. Awful movie.

    Anyway, I saw them in that film also. 11 times! From the time the werewolves attack the train until the end of that reel. Most annoying, right before the end of the reel, there is a 1 minute flashback sequence that imparts essential information. In that short section, I saw 5 seperate sets of dots! In a one minute section of film! I honestly had no idea what happened in that scene, because I was watching the dots! (Fortunately, they then told us, about five times, what happened so I managed to pick it up.) I am about to write a letter of complaint to the manager of the theatre, requesting that he pass on my complaint to whoever possible.

     
  11. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    "The sad thing is how little the online film fan crowd is mobilized against this. DivX would have died anyway, it was a stillborn idea from the beginning...yet so many people rallied against the lame format that was never a true threat to open DVD. Yet here is a genuine, intentional assault on quality projection today, and so few people seem to truly care."

    Well for over 5 years now EVERY frame of network TV shows have been ruined by onscreen logos, even on HDTV, and most people seem to just say "it's no big deal"! [​IMG]
     
  12. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    From my experience, it seems the dots are only showing up on one specific reel for each film afflicted with the dots.

    I did notice them on TTT:EE when I saw it yesterday (the dots show up during the minor skirmish with the Orcs on their weird looking wilderbeest, and during the "what could happen" speculation between Aragorn and Arwen's future life if she stays with Aragorn instead of going to Valinor with the rest of the elves.
     
  13. Jason_Els

    Jason_Els Screenwriter

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    They were on Master and Commander last night and I was FURIOUS!!! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] . If I EVER find the stupid feck who okayed this assault on cinema I will ... well, it's not very polite is all I can say.

    They were all over the storm scene and they completely distracted me from seeing the film itself. From then on I kept noticing them and I couldn't believe they chose scenes where they're most obvious to put them in!!

    Unreal. Just one more nail in the coffin for theaters...
     
  14. Michael St. Clair

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  15. Jason_Els

    Jason_Els Screenwriter

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    The question is, how much are you willing to forgive?

    First they cut the number of features and extras. Where in the "good old days" you could spend an afternoon at a theater you now get ONE feature at 10x the price.

    Then they shrink the screens

    Then they give you better sound while going to Super35 giving you a poorer picture.

    Then they give you umpteen trailers

    Then they give you advertisements! (as if the trailers aren't ads)

    Now they're intentionally ruining prints of films including films already released on DVD??

    I don't see how anyone can't but conclude that studios have nothing but contempt for the customer and will do pretty much anything they feel like with no consideration for their product, the film makers, or customers.

    I will go to ROTK on Trilogy Tuesday and see maybe one or two others in theaters during the year but no more. I can wait for the DVD from now on. Given the relative aspect ratio of a 100" screen in my living room versus what's in most theaters then I'm not missing much. I admit that I'm missing "the theatrical experience" but it's worth the trade. I'm watching Pirates of the Caribbean right now for the first time at home and I'm enjoying it immensely.... without dots.
     
  16. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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  17. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    I think he means the theatrical screening of The Two Towers Extended Cut (there was one).

    These marks are not on DVD releases... yet. If they do get put there I will really scream bloody murder.

    I saw these damn things on Master and Commander and they were very noticeable. Almost like flash frames, they took me right out of the film!!

    Hollywood, you bunch of Bastards!

    Dan
     
  18. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    The funny thing is, bootlegs made with camcorders ALREADY look and sound like crap! I've got one bootleg that my dad picked up in the Phillipines (Space Cowboys, about a week after it came out in theaters over here) that I've kept around just to laugh at how awful it looks. I never thought anyone would think of camcorders as a viable way to copy movies anyways- about 12 years ago when I worked at a theater I brought in a camcorder and shot a few minutes off the screens just to see what it would look like- there was a lot of flickering from the projector shutter, so I thought that was all the copy protection they needed.
    Have they even traced ONE bootleg through these dots yet anyways?
     
  19. StevenFC

    StevenFC Second Unit

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    I said it earlier in this thread. But here it is again:


    Dollar movies [​IMG]


    Let's be frank. When you have money men making the decisions, the artistic side of it is going to suffer. I only see it getting worse. I guess DVDs will be the next to suffer.

    But, as long as I can still read, and there are still stages where I can catch a good play, I'll have an alternative to ham-handed Hollywood.

    Oh yeah, and thank God for the logos on tv channels. I'm WAY too stupid to know what channel I'm watching. And WAY, WAY too lazy to hit the info button on the remote.
     
  20. Fred O

    Fred O Auditioning

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    My interest in Home Theater (too much Widescreen Review) had already ruined the movie experience for me. Ever been to a theater with Non-HT enthusiast and you notice every glare on the screen, busted subwoofer, vibrating frame, incorrect matting, etc. Almost every time I go my critical eyes and ears find fault that I have to struggle to ignore. Then the movie Fight Club educated me on the dots that indicate an upcoming reel change. I always notice them.

    I saw Master and Commander and noticed the red dots. I tought the Predator was in the audience aiming at Russel Crowe. Man it was annoying. An earlier poster was right. It occured during the storms with the light grey background. It made me remember the annoyance of the light pens we all suffered through a few years ago.

    Theaters suck. But I continue to go for the Bigger Screen.
     

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