HK: LFE to fronts with 6ch Direct? (1 Viewer)

[DanCopeland]

The short: My receiver doesn't have HDMI inputs, so I've connected my new Blu-Ray player with 8 channel analog. My front speakers have integrated subwoofers - I have no standalone subwoofer. With my DVD player I'd figured out how to send the LFE signal to the fronts. But when I put the receiver in Direct mode (it says 6ch Direct since I have no surround backs connected, but it supports 7.1), I get no LFE signal in the fronts. The display shows six speakers and the menu won't allow me to change speaker settings for this input.

Is there a way I can get the LFE channel sent to the fronts with 6ch Direct?

The details: The receiver is a Harman-Kardon AVR635 and the player is a Sony BDP-550. My TV is a Bravia LCD so I'm sending the video over HDMI. But I've set the Blu-Ray audio priority to multi-channel analog out. I've tried telling the player I do and don't have a subwoofer - I don't get the LFE either way.

Please let me know what other details I can provide or what I can try fiddling with. Thanks for your help! -Dan

 

[DanCopeland]

Even more confusing - if I set both the player and the receiver to use the optical digital out/in, the receiver shows that it's decoding a Dolby Digital signal but I get no LFE in the fronts (even though this is set up _exactly_ like my DVD player was - and that worked). The HK has an option to send the LFE signal to LFE or "L/R+LFE" and I have it set to the latter - no dice.

 

[gene c]

I've been thinking about this for awhile since I have an H/K 435 currently hooked up. May I ask what leads you to believe the LFE signal is actually reaching your fronts? Since you are using the 6 channel analog inputs, the dvd player is responsible for bass management.
As I understand it, the LFE signal, which is extra bass added on to the full range material in the mixing process, is available to a speaker or subwoofer only thru an a/v cable connection and not thru regular speaker wire. My guess is (and it's only a guess) that even though your 635 may indicate the presence of an LFE signal, it's sending it to the "Sub Out" connection and not mixing it in with and sending it out to the front speakers, even if the fronts are set to "Large".

In case you weren't aware of this, when looking at the speaker section of the front panel display, a box with a speaker designation (like "L", "LFE", "SB") indicates the receiver is getting that signal from an outside source like a dvd player. An empty box in the appropriate location means no signal from the source but one is "created" by the DSP. Since the DSP cannot create an LFE signal, an empty box indicates the DSP has used the cross-over setting to send the bass signal to the subwoofer. No box at all means no signal is sent to that speaker. BTW, with my 435 I can get the LFE signal ( an LFE "inside the box") with 6 Channel Direct, which is H/K's nomenclature for 6 Channel Input or the 5.1/7.1 channel analog inputs.

Also, H/K's of this vintage use a different bass management system than most other makes. With the fronts set to Large you have three subwoofer options. "None" which sends a full range signal to the fronts (or any speaker group set to Large) but no LFE sent anywhere. "LFE" which sends a full range signal to the fronts and the LFE signal to the Sub Out. And "LFE + L/R" which sends a full range signal to the fronts and also sends the bass frequencies under the x-over setting (kind of a Double Bass thing) and the LFE signal to the Sub Out. Setting the fronts to Small automatically turns the subwoofer setting to "SUB". As I understand it, there is no way to send the LFE signal to the front speakers. Sorry :frowning: . Unless your front speakers have an a/v connection which could then be plugged into the Sub Out.

I know that's a lot to comprehend and I hope at least most of it is accurate, but the bottom line is I don't think you can get LFE to the fronts.

 

[DanCopeland]

Hi, Gene. My "proof" is the THX trailer at the beginning of the Toy Story 2 DVD. It includes a flying robot that hits the ground with an exceedingly loud LFE thump. I have hefty (250W, 14") subwoofers in my fronts so it's easy to tell when they're working

I worked on the LFE to fronts problem for quite a while after connecting the DVD player - the key was the "LFE+L/R" setting which you mention. There was a clear difference when I selected this. It sends the LFE signal to the fronts as well as the LFE output (rather than sending the low end of the front signals to the LFE output).

Edit: This is getting unclear... The LFE+L/R solution worked for me with a DVD player over optical digital (not multi analog). The option can't be selected for the 6 channel direct input.

My original question was about multi analog. But I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to work over optical digital from the Blu-Ray player as it did from the DVD player. Which also confuses me.

 

[gene c]

First, a couple of more questions. Are your front speakers hooked up with a single regular speaker wire or is there a sub cable hooked to the subwoofer part? Also, is there a digital wire (toslink or coaxial) hooked up between the dvd player and receiver? The reason I ask this is because you said you could get LFE to the fronts from the dvd player but not when selecting 6 Ch Direct. Well 6 CH Direct is also a dvd setting. My guess is when you select "DVD" on the receiver you are getting audio via a digital 5.1 connection. But I'm sorry, I still don't think you are getting LFE to the fronts. If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone will correct me. When selecting 6 CH Direct you are using the analog cables for the audio. Go into the dvd players setup menu and change the fronts to Large (leave the center/surrounds to Small) and set the subwoofer to Off or None. This will send all the bass to the fronts but I still don't think the LFE will be included. I still believe it only transfer thru the purple Sub Out on the back of the receiver, not thru speaker wire. But who am I to contradict Toy Story 2?!

.

BTW, if it appears I'm "talking down" to you, it's really not my intention to offend. I'm just trying to covering all the bases

.

 

[DanCopeland]

There's no separate cable to the subwoofer section of my fronts (Pioneer Elite TZ-F700).

I've reviewed the 635 manual and it seems you're right about L/R + LFE:

"If a subwoofer is connected and you wish to use it for bass reproduction in conjunction with the main front left/right speakers... [select SUB L/R + LFE] When this option is selected, a full-range signal will be sent to the front left/right "main" speakers, and the subwoofer will receive LFE information and the bass frequencies under the selected crossover point." (presumably the LFE LP FLT setting)

However, earlier on the page it says:

"If the front left/right speakers are set to LARGE... If no subwoofer is connected [select SUB MODE: NONE] When this option is selected, all bass information will be routed to the front left/right "main" speakers."

 

[gene c]

In any event, it appears the issue you are having is a lack of bass with 6 Channel Direct. When 6 CH Direct is selected the audio comes from the 8 Channel analog inputs that you used since the 635 isn't equiped with hdmi. When 6 Ch Direct is selected the only adjustments available with the 635 are individual speaker volumes and the master volume control. Nothing else. No Bass or Treble controls, no EZSet EQ and no Bass Management, including speaker size and subwoofer settings. The 635 acts as an ampilfier and volume controller only. These other settings are done on the dvd/BluRay player so your problem lies with it. All I can suggest is to make sure the fronts are set to Large and None is selected for the subwoofer in the BluRay's speaker setup menu.

 

[DanCopeland]

I once again have LFE over optical (not over 6 Ch Direct - I now think that's impossible).

This is confirmed not only by the Toy Story 2 THX robot but also by the THX Optimode tests on that disc.

The right Sub Mode setting was actually NOT SUB L/R + LFE but SUB NONE. Once I selected that I got the LFE in the fronts. The fact that I had to make that change (and that "No Sub" in the speaker size menu was not sufficient) is confusing.

I still haven't resolved the original problem - which is that the Sony player's bass management doesn't correctly send LFE to the front channels when there's no sub. Maybe they'll fix this in a firmware update.

Thanks for your help.

- Dan