High Resolution Formats Like BD and UHD BD with Artifacting Problems? (1 Viewer)

[Kaskade1309]

This reminds me of the flickering blue courtside ad panels at the 2019 US Open tennis tournament that were driving me nuts. I thought there was something wrong with my brand new OLED TV or the ESPN stream. Until some kind/smart person at a forum pointed out that they were electronic panels, not synchronized to the TV cameras, voila. The courts were overhauled this year and they didn't use the offending panels.

So what are you saying?

How can it then be explained that the same titles viewed by different people aren't exhibiting what I'm seeing? And wouldn't film content be different from what you're saying here with the electronic synch issue?

 

[Bartman]

So what are you saying?

How can it then be explained that the same titles viewed by different people aren't exhibiting what I'm seeing? And wouldn't film content be different from what you're saying here with the electronic synch issue?

Search long and hard enough and someone (maybe a Samsung engineer?) will explain why this artifact happens (as happened in my case).

 

[Kaskade1309]

Except that I'm being told by multiple people, who I've asked to check these discs on their equipment, that they are seeing NONE of what I'm reporting -- and that includes the aforementioned Terminator: Dark Fate UHD release (another Panasonic disc player owner told me that he doesn't see the vertical breakup and distortion in the scene I am referencing on that disc on HIS DP-UB820).

 

[Grant G]

I'm hopping on this, because of a different issue with terminator DF. During a scene where they're driving, there was artifacting in the window of the car. And I'm like is this the disc, my player or the movie itself, (Filming in the car on the soundstage, the fake scenery has a glitch perhaps.)

Anyways, to answer some of your questions about 4K. The quality of the source is an important factor. Also aliasing and banding can be a bandwidth issue. This is an unusual Disc. It's dual layered with Dolby Vision, (More on DV and motion in a second.) Most DV discs are tri layered. 66GB disc vs. 100GB disc. Now I hear tri-layer is harder and more expensive to produce, and apparently DV requires tri layer. It needs the extra space. When You squeeze extra data onto a disc, you get banding and aliasing. That's why Watchmen UC looks the way it does on all formats, they squeeze a 3.5 hr movie onto one disc.

Now, Dolby Vision just straight up activates some form of smoothing and you can't turn it off. So it's kind of a mute point.

Now the fun stuff. first off T6 is a 2k DI upped to 4k. And 2k upscales, I've noticed have more banding and aliasing issues. And if the source is garbage, it's garbage upscaled to 4K. You can get some great upscales, if the source the 2K DI is like above 4k, still pretty great.

But Yeah, this disc is 65GB and 1917 is 95GB. Think about it, they have streaming 4K, and that shit is very compressed. But it's 4k resolution, meaning it's using all the pixels. Doesn't mean it it's using them well.

And one last thing, since 4Ks really try to use the whole disc, be wary of finger prints.

 

[Grant G]

Just Checked the scene, that's your player having an issue with the chapter switch. It's literally the opening of a chapter switch.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

When You squeeze extra data onto a disc, you get banding and aliasing.

Aliasing on disc is not a compression artifact. It's a source artifact.

 

[Grant G]

oh I thought It was just another word for banding.

 

[Grant G]

Wait is Aliasing.... a jagged picture. Oh no one should have that problem.

 

[Kaskade1309]

I'm hopping on this, because of a different issue with terminator DF. During a scene where they're driving, there was artifacting in the window of the car. And I'm like is this the disc, my player or the movie itself, (Filming in the car on the soundstage, the fake scenery has a glitch perhaps.)

I don't see that, Grant -- only the issue I spoke of, which is during the scene when the kids are about to enter the factory in the beginning. Before they go in, there's a shot of the outside of the facility, and the vertical lines of the structure break up unto this twitchy shimmering on my setup -- now I don't know if this is the processing of my Samsung display causing it, an artifact from the disc being a 2D intermediate upconvert to 4K (which I was told can do this) or what, but no one else who owns this UHD Blu sees it, seemingly.

Anyways, to answer some of your questions about 4K. The quality of the source is an important factor. Also aliasing and banding can be a bandwidth issue. This is an unusual Disc. It's dual layered with Dolby Vision, (More on DV and motion in a second.) Most DV discs are tri layered. 66GB disc vs. 100GB disc. Now I hear tri-layer is harder and more expensive to produce, and apparently DV requires tri layer. It needs the extra space. When You squeeze extra data onto a disc, you get banding and aliasing. That's why Watchmen UC looks the way it does on all formats, they squeeze a 3.5 hr movie onto one disc.

Interesting; and, to add fuel to that confusion fire, I was also told, as aforementioned, that when we're dealing with a 2D intermediate upconversion, as Dark Fate is, it can cause some patterns of moire and aliasing/twiching...

Now, Dolby Vision just straight up activates some form of smoothing and you can't turn it off. So it's kind of a mute point.

Can you explain what this means a bit better? My display doesn't support Dolby Vision, so these discs default to their base HDR10 layer on my system...

Now the fun stuff. first off T6 is a 2k DI upped to 4k. And 2k upscales, I've noticed have more banding and aliasing issues. And if the source is garbage, it's garbage upscaled to 4K. You can get some great upscales, if the source the 2K DI is like above 4k, still pretty great.

THIS touches on what I was saying above -- the problem is, EVERY person I've asked to test this disc for me reported that they are seeing NO artifacts like I describe on their setups...it was then suggested that it must be a setting in my TV, but I am running everything in the accurate "Movie" picture mode, with backlighting and contrast at their defaults for HDR (maximum) and the sharpness control at the default of "0." If anything, the sharpness would contribute to artifacts and aliasing and such, so I don't understand why it's happening if my picture settings are somewhat accurate.

But Yeah, this disc is 65GB and 1917 is 95GB. Think about it, they have streaming 4K, and that shit is very compressed. But it's 4k resolution, meaning it's using all the pixels. Doesn't mean it it's using them well.

And one last thing, since 4Ks really try to use the whole disc, be wary of finger prints.

This issue occurred out of the package with this disc -- and I handle them with EXTREME care. Plus, fingerprints would cause breaking up/pixelation distortion, not random picture artifacts like shimmering.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Just Checked the scene, that's your player having an issue with the chapter switch. It's literally the opening of a chapter switch.

Now THIS is interesting -- because my Panasonic player doesn't indicate chapter number on the front panel screen (ridiculous shortcoming that Panasonic doesn't seem to care about), I never knew that was a chapter break. Still, though, why would the player trip up on chapter skips? This is Panasonic's flagship UHD disc spinner, at $999 (U.S.); why would it have issues changing chapters?

Further, what would cause the chapter change to break into this shimmering artifact I'm seeing on the vertical lines?

Are you sure you watched the right scene?

 

[Kaskade1309]

Wait is Aliasing.... a jagged picture. Oh no one should have that problem.

Aliasing is the jagged edges you see on vertical and horizontal lines; it usually comes from poor de-interlacing by a disc player. I had this issue with my first generation Panasonic DMP-BD10A BD player, and it's the reason I traded up to the Oppo BDP-83 which, with its Anchor Bay VRS processor, was MILES beyond the Panasonic in terms of DVD upconversion.

Sometimes, as it was explained to me by Oppo reps and which I have confirmed with my own eyes, aliasing is baked into a transfer on a disc, and there's nothing that can be done about it; I see shortcomings of this Panasonic UHD player's processor in terms of 480i upconversion and de-interlacing when viewing DVDs, but it is what it is. The problem I'm having is accepting that NATIVE 4K/2160p signals from a 4K Blu-ray Disc coming over to my display are exhibiting these picture issues (even some upscaled 1080p Blu-rays have some issues, too, such as on the Captain America: Civil War disc).

 

[Kaskade1309]

oh I thought It was just another word for banding.

Banding is something totally different; it is related to color depth issues, usually, and is seen in transients of saturated colors.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Aliasing on disc is not a compression artifact. It's a source artifact.

It can also be related to poor de-interlacing abilities of a player, wherein additional aliasing will be caused by a player's processor. I experienced this big time on a first generation Panny DMP-BD10A...

 

[Michel_Hafner]

It can also be related to poor de-interlacing abilities of a player, wherein additional aliasing will be caused by a player's processor. I experienced this big time on a first generation Panny DMP-BD10A...

BD and UHD BD usually do not need deinterlacing since the films are stored as progressive full frames as on the film. Interlaced material from real originally interlaced sources has more or less aliasing when deinterlaced to progressive since the source has temporal and potentially spatial aliasing baked in.

 

[Grant G]

I Can't do quotes. I'll learn soon. I want to get back into forums again.

On 2K DIs, that makes sense. Given what I understand about upscaling. But.... I can also say 2k DI upscales seem to require much less disc anyway. Avengers endgame sits on a 66 disc. So the upscaling doesn't seem to make much space difference. I should mention as with Blu rays (regular) are x264 encoding and 4K is always x265. I think x265 can hold the same quality in 1/4 the space. So a 100GB disc with x265 should be able to hold 400GB worth of x264 data, and A blu ray movie is usually 30GB at x264. whoa right.

Dolby Vision on my TV anyways, locks in Cinema Clear. which is fine. I think one of the other DV modes on the tv can turn it off. But you can't change too much with the color. DV has dynamic tone mapping of it's own. It's quite good. I have a nanocell91. Didn't know about Panels when I bought it, and I'm poor normally so. whatever, I plan on getting some bias lights. it's 120hz and apparently LG and DV have a history of being washed out @120hz. And I'm like is this washed out? It wasn't. They fixed it this year with Dolby Vision IQ. Filmmaker Mode is cool, But it's dark, but it also has better color than the other regular HDR10 modes. So IDK. I like my Dolby Vision with the IQ.

Sometimes there's a slight pause with chapter switches..... if there's a problem with the player. I should have mentioned that. It's just a sign there's a problem with the player. I'm 99% sure. It's between the REV9 talking to her dad and Then them inside the building approaching the guard. if it is, then yeah there's a switch there.

Also, find out if those other people were also watching it in DV. That might mean something. Well I could turn on Freesync and disable my DV and take a look.

Try running your setup for like a hour, make sure you don't turn anything off. and start the movie from the beginning, if you haven't already.

I mentioned the finger prints, because that's new to me with 4K.
lol. I went looking for answers.... I think it's just you again though. lol. AVSForums?

Try specifically for a comparison, another paramount 4k disc. It could just be the disc, perhaps a pressing issue that confuses your player at that moment.

 

[Kaskade1309]

BD and UHD BD usually do not need deinterlacing since the films are stored as progressive full frames as on the film. Interlaced material from real originally interlaced sources has more or less aliasing when deinterlaced to progressive since the source has temporal and potentially spatial aliasing baked in.

I was speaking mainly about standard DVDs.

 

[Kaskade1309]

lol. I went looking for answers.... I think it's just you again though. lol. AVSForums?

Nope.

 

[Kaskade1309]

I Can't do quotes. I'll learn soon.

It's simple; just quote and endquote the person and sentence you wish to respond to.

On 2K DIs, that makes sense. Given what I understand about upscaling. But.... I can also say 2k DI upscales seem to require much less disc anyway. Avengers endgame sits on a 66 disc. So the upscaling doesn't seem to make much space difference. I should mention as with Blu rays (regular) are x264 encoding and 4K is always x265. I think x265 can hold the same quality in 1/4 the space. So a 100GB disc with x265 should be able to hold 400GB worth of x264 data, and A blu ray movie is usually 30GB at x264. whoa right.

But there are a couple of problems here -- first, why should the 2K intermediates cause artifacts in the picture when the discs are merely playing back at 2160P resolution? I mean, what would cause these issues? Secondly, if this is true, then why isn't anyone else seeing the glitches I'm seeing when I've asked them to test Dark Fate on their setups with Panasonic UHD players?

Dolby Vision on my TV anyways, locks in Cinema Clear. which is fine. I think one of the other DV modes on the tv can turn it off. But you can't change too much with the color. DV has dynamic tone mapping of it's own. It's quite good. I have a nanocell91. Didn't know about Panels when I bought it, and I'm poor normally so. whatever, I plan on getting some bias lights. it's 120hz and apparently LG and DV have a history of being washed out @120hz. And I'm like is this washed out? It wasn't. They fixed it this year with Dolby Vision IQ. Filmmaker Mode is cool, But it's dark, but it also has better color than the other regular HDR10 modes. So IDK. I like my Dolby Vision with the IQ.

My display doesn't even support Dolby Vision, so it's not a factor for me (it supports HDR10+, seemingly a Samsung thing); plus, the issues I'm talking about occur when running this particular disc in HDR10.

Sometimes there's a slight pause with chapter switches..... if there's a problem with the player. I should have mentioned that. It's just a sign there's a problem with the player. I'm 99% sure. It's between the REV9 talking to her dad and Then them inside the building approaching the guard. if it is, then yeah there's a switch there.

Well this isn't good news -- seems between this chapter switch problem and the distortion I'm seeing when objects move quickly across the screen, I probably got a defective player. And, yes, I believe you're talking about the exact same scene I am in the film...

Also, find out if those other people were also watching it in DV. That might mean something. Well I could turn on Freesync and disable my DV and take a look.

Again, I'm not running the disc with its Dolby Vision layer -- only HDR10.

Try running your setup for like a hour, make sure you don't turn anything off. and start the movie from the beginning, if you haven't already.

You mean put the disc in after the system has been running for awhile?

I mentioned the finger prints, because that's new to me with 4K.
lol. I went looking for answers.... I think it's just you again though. lol. AVSForums?

It wasn't me on AVS; is there someone else reporting problems with Dark Fate...or were you referring to research you did about the fingerprints?

Try specifically for a comparison, another paramount 4k disc. It could just be the disc, perhaps a pressing issue that confuses your player at that moment.

I don't have another Paramount 4K title to check, I don't believe...

 

[Kaskade1309]

Grant,

In continuing this conversation about possible flaws with the UB9000's chapter changes, I'd like to inquire of something happening with my 9000 that I've noticed when mainly playing NTSC DVDs...

It's really difficult to explain (I'm beginning to think I DID get a faulty unit because of all this, and that would be two-for-two for me, given that my previous UHD player, a Cambridge Audio CXUHD, had a noisy DVD playback problem) but I have been experiencing weird "glitches" when playing these Region 1 DVDs where it seems like, when a certain scene comes on the screen, the image "breaks up" into this weird "stuttering jaggedness"...as if the player can't seem to "lock on" to the cadence on the disc or something. I've noticed it mostly with DVD rentals, so I chalked it up to maybe these films, being released by small foreign studios, are tripping up the Panasonic in terms of frame rate, but it has been occurring with discs in my own collection, too, as last night when we watched the 1999 remake of The Haunting.

There was a moment when the characters are in the garden room of the mansion, and the picture seemed to "break" into jagged artifacts for a second before going back to normal. Now, I know you have been talking with me about the artifacts/shimmering/twitching I'm seeing randomly on 4K Blu-rays like Terminator: Dark Fate and that you have been suggesting that it may be the way the player is handling chapter skips, as the part of Terminator I keep complaining about which seems to trip up my 9000 is indeed the very start of a new chapter...

Could it be that the player is having some kind of issue reading chapter changes? Why would this be? It would explain a lot, because I have also experienced DVDs that have seriously tripped up the player when the actual layer change occurs -- there was one disc which really froze and then stuttered into the next scene during the layer change, and even my wife noticed it and was like "Why did it do that?"

I'm seeing these visual anomalies with mostly DVDs now, and it concerns me that I may have gotten a bad player. I am also taking into consideration the possibility that the 480i de-interlacing and scaling performance of this unit, like almost all other Panasonic high definition disc players, is just complete shite.

I haven't noticed this particular issue -- where the screen will kind of freeze and get jagged for a moment before going back to normal -- with Blu-rays or UHD Blu-rays, so I'm assuming it's something to do with the layer/chapter change reading on DVDs or some issue with the Panasonic's processing for NTSC DVD...

 

[Grant G]

2k di upscales are upscales.
You'll get some artifacts from filling the space with made up info, or whatever. Professionally done, or not. Ironically it's the simple scenes where you notice it. As there isn't as much differing material on screen to duplicate to hide the upscale. But 2k di upscales have more issues with contrast it seems. The thing you quoted has to do with discs and space and Dolby vision. I think if it's an upscale than they can easiler fit the dv onto a 66 uhd.
I just got a sound set up. It's nice.