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High Resolution Formats Like BD and UHD BD with Artifacting Problems? (2 Viewers)

Kaskade1309

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Is it possible for high resolution formats such as Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray to exhibit video artifacting issues with their transfers?

Let me come at this from another direction...

I've watched my 1080p Blu-ray copy of Captain America: Civil War, since it came out on, first, a Sony 50" SXRD rear projection display as fed by an Oppo BDP-83, and then on my current display, a 65" Samsung NU8000 4K model, as fed by the Oppo, then a Cambridge Audio CXUHD and now a Panasonic DP-UB9000. While I can't recall if the issue I'm about to describe was there when viewing the film on the Sony SXRD, ever since watching the disc on the larger Samsung 4K display, there is a moment that exhibits nasty "shimmering" and weird "twitching/aliasing," and no matter how many people I've asked to test this for me on their setups, the response is always the same: They DON'T see it on THEIR systems.

The scene I'm referring to -- for anyone who has seen the film and Blu-ray -- is in the beginning when the camera is zooming in on the mountainside facility where Bucky is being enhanced as the Winter Soldier, and when we get a closeup of that red "book" with the Soviet star on it (which contains the "transformation code sequence"), it always plays back on my Samsung with nasty shimmering and other artifacting in the texture around the book.

The moment I'm talking about is this one:

1598745197304.png


That "box" the book sits in starts to jump around with all kinds of artifacts...shimmering, aliasing...it's pretty bad. But it's ONLY for this moment.

Now, here's the weird thing: This happened when playing this 1080p disc in first my Cambridge CXUHD 4K disc player upscaled to 4K, as well as my new Panasonic UB9000, also upscaled to 4K. When I tested the disc in my bedroom, where I have a first-generation Panasonic DMP-BD10A BD player connected to a 40" LG 1080p LCD, I DIDN'T notice the problem (or it was greatly reduced) -- this lead me to believe something in the upscaling of these two disc players was doing something to that scene, for whatever reason.

However, when I asked about this on Blu-ray.com at one point, NO ONE found this issue with the regular Blu-ray of Captain America: Civil War on THEIR displays/systems...and they assured me they were viewing the upscaled 1080p version (to 4K); as such, they insisted it MUST be my Samsung television.

Fast-forward to when I viewed my UHD Blu-ray copy of Terminator: Dark Fate upon its release -- I have noticed at least one moment of artifacting and strange "twitching" in the background of a beginning sequence, when the siblings arrive at their factory job in Mexico. Before they walk in and you hear "Hola!" as they greet the security guard at the entrance, there's a moment when the exterior of the factory is being shown, and I always see that shimmering/twitching in the vertical lines in one part of the factory structure. And this is with a 4K disc being fed to a 4K display...so it's native 2160p to a native 2160p panel, no scaling process taking place.

Is it normal for some discs just to exhibit artifacting like this, even if it's as high a resolution as 2160p? Or is it indeed my television, as many have suggested? Can a display create artifacts on its own even if it's being fed the native resolution of its panel? Would it have something to do with the motion smoothing settings I'm using (Samsung calls this "Auto Motion Plus") that enables smoothing out of 24FPS content but without soap opera effect?
 

Josh Steinberg

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Would it have something to do with the motion smoothing settings I'm using (Samsung calls this "Auto Motion Plus") that enables smoothing out of 24FPS content but without soap opera effect?

That’s almost entirely certainly the cause of the problem. If not that specifically, something on either your disc player or television is introducing the artifacts as part of one of the video processing options that can be offered on either or both.
 

jcroy

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I generally assume that any processing beyond the original raw data being played, may very well introduce artifacts.

I watch any all tv shows + movies with all further processing turned off on my bluray players and tv screen. The raw picture usually looks somewhat "flat".
 

Kaskade1309

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That’s almost entirely certainly the cause of the problem. If not that specifically, something on either your disc player or television is introducing the artifacts as part of one of the video processing options that can be offered on either or both.

With regard to the video processing on the PLAYERS I've watched Civil War on, there's really nothing that could account for causing this, unless the processors themselves were/are doing it, as there is no noise reduction, added sharpness, special picture models or anything of the kind engaged on them. I'd also have a hard time believing that BOTH the Cambridge player's MediaTek chipset (which shares its guts with the Oppo UDP-203) and the Panasonic's HCX processor take this ONE scene and mess it up, for lack of a better term; I mean, what would be the chances that this ONE moment gets tripped up by two different processors?

If it WERE the motion processing of the television, why is this only happening in this ONE scene and on no other discs?

Now, with regard to the 4K Blu-ray of Terminator: Dark Fate, why would a 2160-to-2160 transfer of content exhibit shimmering or aliasing of some kind? Shouldn't the result be super-smooth if there's NO scaling going on?
 

Kaskade1309

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I generally assume that any processing beyond the original raw data being played, may very well introduce artifacts.

I watch any all tv shows + movies with all further processing turned off on my bluray players and tv screen. The raw picture usually looks somewhat "flat".

There is no processing on my display or player being engaged save for the motion smoothing on the TV -- but this has NEVER given me ghosting or any other kinds of common side effects as reported by users. While I can clearly disengage the motion settings to test this, it seems strange that the Auto Motion Plus system would cause vertical shimmering and pulsating artifacts, as I'm seeing in select scenes.
 

Kaskade1309

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Interestingly (perhaps oddly?), I stumbled across these comments online from reviewers when I did some "aliasing on Civil War" Googling:

Captain America: Civil War boasts some impressive visuals in both the standard and 3D versions of the film included in this collector’s edition. The 2D version offers the superior image with crisp detail, sharp contrast, deep blacks, and rich vibrant colors, despite some aggressive color correction in post that keeps everything overcast and moody. Every last detail is visible from the brushed metal in Cap’s shield to the battle scars on Tony’s suit. The movie upconverts nicely into 4K on my Sony UHD, which also helps to mask some aliasing issues evident on non-4K screens, but I can only wonder how much more awesome this film would have been in true 4K UHD

A touch of aliasing is visible in a handful of shots, though nothing worth more than a passing mention. This is a terrific overall effort from Disney.

A rarity for Marvel/Disney Blu-ray, aliasing shows up early. It’s notable on Bucky’s suit as he’s seated in the chair during the opening prologue, then again during the UN meeting in Africa; some of the metal barriers break up as the camera pans down on the king’s speech. A few of spots of noise creep in too, although those digital artifacts make for a vapid complaint.


What's weird is that I DON'T see the "Bucky in the chair" moment as mentioned, nor can I concur with the comment of the 4K upscaling "masking" issues "evident on non-4K screens" -- I mean, I'm SEEING it on a 4K SCREEN.
 

Kaskade1309

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With regard to my Terminator: Dark Fate comment about the beginning factory scene exhibiting some twitchy shimmering, can anyone who has this 4K Blu-ray check this area for me?
 

Mark-P

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If you are dead set on using motion smoothing, then you're going to have to take the good with the bad. Smoothing is an algorithm which is just guessing at what to put in the recreated frames. It's a given that it won't be perfect and artifacts will occur.
 

Kaskade1309

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If you are dead set on using motion smoothing, then you're going to have to take the good with the bad. Smoothing is an algorithm which is just guessing at what to put in the recreated frames. It's a given that it won't be perfect and artifacts will occur.

I understand that. I do see the "frame skipping" and the infamous "Samsung microstutter" from time to time (I was able to mitigate this by dropping "Blur Reduction" to "8" out of "10" and Judder Reduction to "5" out of "10"; this shouldn't matter because these two values are supposed to operate independent of one another, with Judder being for 24FPS content and Blur for 60FPS content, but I have found that on Samsungs they somehow DO interact at a certain level for 24FPS film content). But what I am experiencing really doesn't seem like it would be caused by the motion smoothing system -- what I'm seeing is weird artifacting in CERTAIN scenes, every time on JUST those scenes. They're not artifacts really related to motion interpolation systems; it's more like a de-interlacing problem wherein aliasing and shimmering/moire effects are produced.

I really wanted to know if it was possible for high resolution media like BD and UHD BD to exhibit what would once be chalked up to DVD-level problems -- the aliasing/jagged edges, shimmering, etc. I found some information online about the Civil War Blu-ray and some aliasing issues, which I shared above, so I suppose it IS possible...but I'm not seeing the issues in the places THOSE reviews are pointing out on the disc, which is, to say, VERY weird.
 

Neil S. Bulk

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The Moonraker Blu-ray has an aliasing issue in horizontal blinds when Bond meets Dr. Goodhead around 17:40 into the film.
 

Robert Harris

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The more complex our viewing environments become - the more processing occurring - the more tiny little problems can come to the fore.

Several years ago, I acquired - probably because one was in stock - an Oppo with Darbee processing. Turned it on. Set it up, and immediately I had sync problems.

Last week I tested my JVC with 8k pixel shift in the on position. I used Aurens as test material, and used the CUs in the tent sequence, shot with the incredibly highly resolving Panavision 51mm lens.

I was able to see a bit more detail in Alec Guinness’ eye, but then noted other tiny amonolies that I didn’t like. From a nominal seating distance “8k” adds nothing.

The 8k is now in the off position.

The less processing, the purer the image, the less likely one will have problems.

One of the errors I often note when viewing on alien panels, is sharpening set far too high. Digital sharpening can be helpful to a point, after which...

When we equalized the shot of Audrey Hepburn coming down the stairs during the ball gown reveal, we added sharpening to that single shot, as we were coming off b/w masters.

The magic number - from 0 to 100 - turned out to be +7. Hardly noticeable. And virtually invisible on screen, but serving as a equalizer for continuity of grain structure.
 
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Kaskade1309

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The more complex our viewing environments become - the more processing occurring - the more tiny little problems can come to the fore.

Several years ago, I acquired - probably because one was in stock - an Oppo with Darbee processing. Turned it on. Set it up, and immediately I had sync problems.

Last week I tested my JVC with 8k pixel shift in the on position. I used Aurens as test material, and used the CUs in the tent sequence, shot with the incredibly highly resolving Panavision 51mm lens.

I was able to see a bit more detail in Alec Guinness’ eye, but then noted other tiny amonolies that I didn’t like. From a nominal seating distance “8k” adds nothing.

The 8k is now in the off position.

The less processing, the purer the image, the less likely one will have problems.

One of the errors I often note when viewing on alien panels, is sharpening set far too high. Digital sharpening can be helpful to a point, after which...

When we equalized the shot of Audrey Hepburn coming down the stairs during the ball gown reveal, we added sharpening to that single shot, as we were coming off b/w masters.

The magic number - from 0 to 100 - turned out to be +7. Hardly noticeable. And virtually invisible on screen, but serving as a equalizer for continuity of grain structure.
Sharpness isn't a factor in this case; my Samsung's sharpness is at "0" on the slider, per the default (accurate) position in Movie picture mode, which I use.
 

Kaskade1309

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I watched Civil War the other night, and alongside the scene I mentioned in the beginning -- with the red book -- I noted another area that exhibited issues...towards the end, when Steve and Bucky are about to step off the elevator to confront the Zemo character, Cap's blue helmet piece showed "twitching" in the horizontal lines...as if the processor of either the player or TV couldn't render this scene correctly...

What is going on here? Can anyone with this disc and/or the Terminator 4K confirm this for me?
 

Mark-P

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We are assuming here that you’ve ruled out motion-smoothing as the culprit since you said you would try disengaging it for a test?
 

Kaskade1309

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Nope, disengaging motion smoothing didn't fix it. It's definitely an issue with the player's processing, or the TV's.
 

Kaskade1309

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Can anyone who may happen to have a copy of Terminator: Dark Fate on UHD Blu-ray check that scene at the factory in the beginning for me?
 

Bartman

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This reminds me of the flickering blue courtside ad panels at the 2019 US Open tennis tournament that were driving me nuts. I thought there was something wrong with my brand new OLED TV or the ESPN stream. Until some kind/smart person at a forum pointed out that they were electronic panels, not synchronized to the TV cameras, voila. The courts were overhauled this year and they didn't use the offending panels.
 

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