High-Res Audio discussion: Blu-ray Audio, SACD, DVD Audio, and HI-Resolution audio files discussion (1 Viewer)

[Wes Candela]

Thought I would open a thread for people who wanted to discuss high-resolution audio for the home theater.

Music in object-based Dolby Atmos,
DVD audio, SACD,s & hi resolution, audio file downloads
Was having a discussion about this with
@jcroy & @Robin9

See below

Back in the day circa 1999, I was hoping dvd-audio would become ubiquitious. (Unfortunately it did not).

Nowadays I don't even bother wasting time/cash on higher resolution audio files, for the reason that my musical tastes are are not represented at all at online retailers which offer digital files better than 44.1 (or 48) kHz + 16 bits. The few titles which are offered as higher resolution, are either just dumb upscales from 44.1/16 or they are extremely "brickwalled". So it is no different than the cd version. Basically a complete waste of time/cash.

This type of silliness persists even with the few dvdaudio and other higher resolution disc cases (such as higher resolution *.wav files placed onto a pressed dvd-rom disc) of interest to me. They were still heavily "brickwalled".

That’s why I’m giving you the company name you can trust for high-fidelity audio on super audio CD

Yes, the selections are a bit limited and I don’t find my taste. Represented there all the time.

However, they did just start to put out the first six Van Halen albums on vinyl and super audio CD

They are faithful to preserving the dynamic range of the original master recording

There are also some really good Blu-ray audio discs out there.

And there’s a ton of classics that are released digitally like the Black Crowes firat and second album in 96/24.

Remastered and re-released they sound phenomenal.

I don’t know what your tastes are, but take a look at this...

https://mofi.com/

Have you sampled any of the Octave Records SACDs? They're true high definition. The CEO Paul McGowern has his own YouTube channel and often talks about how they record in 252 DSD.

And agreed, DVD audio was fantastic
I still have a bunch of them.

Paul is a great guy. A smart man, I love the way he explains audio

He can take a subject and break it down for audiophiles like myself in a way that doesn’t speak down to the audience

But instead makes it clear and simple.

Don’t have any of their releases yet.

I would stay away from HDTracks
Ugh.

Whoever the hell is in charge of the releases there has no desire to release the albums with dynamic range intact.

In fact, they seem want to destroy the fidelity. They constantly brickwall their releases.

Example:
I am a massive Pearl Jam fan,
When they started to re-release their music for the 20 year anniversaries, HDTracks got a hold of the releases and put them out in 192 kHz 24 bit.

However, this is what they did to the tracks...

Below are two images
The first is a waveform of what Pearl Jam's "Not for You"'s waveform looked like from the tracks original CD release.

View attachment 251626

Perfect. All sonics are intact and captured.

20 years later, this is what HDTracks released...
View attachment 251627

They completely destroyed the song, sonics and dynamic range.

So yes, you must be careful, however
This is not the case with all releases

Hi Fidelity, music is alive and well and out there, you just have to research the source of the re-release and double check their reputation among audiophiles and purists.

Any thoughts any tips any opinions?

What do you like, what?
Where do you listen to your music?
Do you appreciate high-resolution digital audio music? (192kHz 24bit, DSD, Dolby Atmos, 96kHz 24bit 5.1 soundtracks and albums?

What's your favorite? What do you recommend?

Opinions, thoughts, enthusiasm, preferences, arguments against?

What do you got?

 

[JohnRice]

If this is going to actually be a discussion of high res music, then I’m in. If it’s just another excuse to endlessly rant about brickwalling, forget it.

I have an extensive hd music collection, and an exceptionally capable system to reproduce it, fwiw.

My hd music is mostly classical, prog rock & metal, and some classic rock.

 

[Wes Candela]

If this is going to actually be a discussion of high res music, then I’m in. If it’s just another excuse to endlessly rant about brickwalling, forget it.

I have an extensive hd music collection, and an exceptionally capable system to reproduce it, fwiw.

My hd music is mostly classical, prog rock & metal, and some classic rock.

No man, I wanna celebrate some great high resolution, digital music

Because in my opinion, while vinyl is great to some people
And I love it myself

I love seeing the digital frontier reproduce music at higher qualities now.

They never should have rushed to judgment with the red book CD standard of 44/100 kHz/16 bit

It should’ve always been 48 kHz/24 bit in my opinion.

And now we are finally getting more and more music in high resolution

Yeah, some of it is brick walled, but if you go to places like Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab’s or octave records I believe is the name of it or some other sources you can find phenomenal transfers at high bitrates and sample rates.

I think it is a discussion Worth having, celebrating the advances that have been made
And the great releases that are out there.

You know?

And by the way, my teeth are exactly like yours. I probably have more classical music than anything in high resolution and I've been collecting for almost 18 years now.

The first DVD audio discs that I bought were
The Beatles Love

https://www.discogs.com/release/845792-The-Beatles-Love

Herbert Von Karajan- Mozart Requiem
https://www.discogs.com/release/837...liner-Philharmoniker-Requiem-In-D-Minor-K-626

You?

 

[JohnRice]

Well, most people don't understand the connection I see between my two favorite genres, classical and prog rock/metal, but they seem like two fingers on the same hand to me. In fact, if Mahler was alive and composing today, I suspect it would be a lot like Tool.

 

[jcroy]

The first DVD audio discs that I bought were
The Beatles Love

https://www.discogs.com/release/845792-The-Beatles-Love

This was the only dvd-audio disc I purchased.

Initially I didn't know what the second disc was, where I originally thought it was some type of strange disc which just replicated the same music tracks with a non-descript background on the tv screen.

I only realized later what it really was, from copying the entire iso filesystem of the second disc to the computer. Mounting the iso, I saw right away it was more than just music with a non-descript screen image. A second directory had much larger files, which I eventually realized was a higher resolution stream of the music. (I used a program which extracted the individual channels from the files in the second directory, and saw there was at least 4 individual channels).

Oddly enough, there was no encryption on the "dvd-audio" directory of this Beatles Love dvd-audio disc.

 

[jcroy]

Other oddities I found in $3 dump bins around 15 years ago, were double-sided flipper discs where one side was a generic audio cd, while the other side had a dvd filesystem. The marketing term appears to have been "dualdisc".

Copying the iso filesystems from the dvd sides of these dualdisc flippers to the computer, I saw right away it had files of music streams which were a different resolution than generic 44.1/16 redbook cd.

The Judas Priest "Angel of Retribution" dualdisc, had a file on the dvd side of the flipper which appeared to be the album in 48 kHz sampling / 16 bits.

https://www.discogs.com/release/1696963-Judas-Priest-Angel-Of-Retribution

 

[jcroy]

The two other dualdiscs were compilations from the now-defunct record label Silverline.

https://www.discogs.com/release/10419306-Various-Classic-Rock-Masters-Current-Music

https://www.discogs.com/release/15928397-Various-Heavy-Metal-Masters-

On the dvd side of these Silverline dualdiscs, there were files of the same music stream at a different resolution higher than 44.1/16.


The only tracks on these two compilations which sounded any better than the original versions, was the Motorhead song "ace of spades". It sounded like the producers went back to the studio, and did an entirely new surround mix.


In contrast, most of the other tracks sounded like a lazy/dumb surround mix where original versions had reverb added to the surround channels.

 

[jcroy]

That’s why I’m giving you the company name you can trust for high-fidelity audio on super audio CD

Yes, the selections are a bit limited and I don’t find my taste. Represented there all the time.

....
I don’t know what your tastes are, but take a look at this...

https://mofi.com/

Every once in a while, I google around to see what has been released on sacd/dvd-audio/bluray-audio. Unfortunately 99.999999 % of the time I come up completely empty. That mofi web site I went through a few times in the recent past.

As a recent case of this, I was thinking of purchasing Nightwish "Yesterwynde" which had an extremely limited edition bluray-audio version with a Dolby Atmos mix. Though what completely changed my mind, was listening to the cd version over a dozen times and finding the songwriting kinda on the medicore or crappy side. (I made a preorder on the cd, before it was released in September 2024). This limited edition is already out-of-print after six months.

https://www.discogs.com/release/31773002-Nightwish-Yesterwynde

In practice I have found repeatedly that something which I thought has mediocre or outright crappy songwriting, no amount of remixing/remastering or higher resolution sound quality will ever increase my interest in the album.

 

[jcroy]

It should’ve always been 48 kHz/24 bit in my opinion.

Why 24 bits specifically ?

If 24 bits was chosen, it would have likely required a slightly larger disc diamater to hold 74 minutes.

I don't know how much the Beethoven 9th symphony story holds water, in regard to the disc size.

A CD can hold exactly 74 minutes of music – thanks to Beethoven

One of the greatest composers in history added to his musical legacy with the invention of the CD, over 150 years after he died.

www.classicfm.com

CD Length

Were CDs designed to be long enough to hold Beethoven's 9th Symphony?

www.snopes.com

 

[Blimpoy06]

Rhino Music has been pretty aggressive the last few years releasing Hi Res audio on blu ray.

Atmos

Atmos Rhino - Official Store

Atmos - Browse the vast selection of products available at Rhino - Official Store.

store.rhino.com

Quadio

Quadio Rhino - Official Store

Quadio - Browse the vast selection of products available at Rhino - Official Store.

store.rhino.com

I've bought nearly all of those releases so far. Just fell behind in the last year on the Quads.

 

[jcroy]

Well, most people don't understand the connection I see between my two favorite genres, classical and prog rock/metal, but they seem like two fingers on the same hand to me. In fact, if Mahler was alive and composing today, I suspect it would be a lot like Tool.

Many folks choose not to see any connection, especially if one absolutely hates one of the other genres in question (for whatever personal reasons).

Back in the day, I noticed a similar parallel with the fast shred guitar players like Yngwie Malmsteen compared to stuff like Paganini's caprices.

 

[jcroy]

Rhino Music has been pretty aggressive the last few years releasing Hi Res audio on blu ray.

The only rhino hires audio title on bluray I had any remote interest in, is Black Sabbath "Live Evil".

Back in the day I listened to this album a lot. So I was very familiar with the original mix from the vinyl record and first cd release (in a bulky two-disc cd case). It was a very crappy mix to begin with, with a very unnatural sounding low end mid-bass boost on the guitar sound. The mix almost sounds like it was in "mono", with only crowd noises in the extreme left and right edges of the soundstage. (The latter left + right edges can be heard easily in isolation, by extracting the data from the original cd and doing a L-R on a mixing program like audacity).

I picked up the 2023 four-disc cd re-release which had a remix of the entire album. The remix sounded somewhat better than the original mix, where the unnatural low end was significantly reduced, and there was more of a spread out "soundstage" in the mix where not everthing was crowded into the middle. In other words, it sounded more like a "stereo mix" than the original.

Though with all that being said, this remix still has the crappiness of the original sound in the individual instrument tracks. There is no non-AI way to deal with such original crappy sound, since it was already "baked in" from the start in the original 24+ tracks studio tape. A higher resolution atmos mix will not change this aspect.

 

[jcroy]

In fact, if Mahler was alive and composing today, I suspect it would be a lot like Tool.

My wild guess is if Richard Wagner was alive in the mid 20th century, he would have been like Jim Steinman (ie. Bat Out Of Hell, Total Eclipse of the Heart, Holding Out For a Hero, etc ....).

 

[JohnRice]

My wild guess is if Richard Wagner was alive in the mid 20th century, he would have been like Jim Steinman (ie. Bat Out Of Hell, Total Eclipse of the Heart, Holding Out For a Hero, etc ....).

I’ll have to contemplate that. I’ve recently been enjoying a trip back in time with a bunch of Steinman, including watching Streets of Fire. I’m not sure Wagner is who I’d compare him to, but I’ll consider it.

 

[JohnRice]

Sort of a mash-up of Ry Cooder and Jim Steinman. Fun combination.

 

[Wes Candela]

Well, most people don't understand the connection I see between my two favorite genres, classical and prog rock/metal, but they seem like two fingers on the same hand to me. In fact, if Mahler was alive and composing today, I suspect it would be a lot like Tool.

Oh hell yeah.
Mahlers Ninth

Power and beauty

For me it started with Beethoven's ninth

It was always rock, soft rock, then I got into jazz
Classical

It's all expression. It's all beautiful. It all hits me the same.

There's the dark side of the moon by the Floyd

There's passion the soundtrack to the last temptation of Christ by Peter Gabriel

And there's Beethoven's ninth.

And then it goes on from there
I completely understand the connection haha

Mahler and Tool

Hell yeah.

 

[Wes Candela]

This was the only dvd-audio disc I purchased.

Initially I didn't know what the second disc was, where I originally thought it was some type of strange disc which just replicated the same music tracks with a non-descript background on the tv screen.

I only realized later what it really was, from copying the entire iso filesystem of the second disc to the computer. Mounting the iso, I saw right away it was more than just music with a non-descript screen image. A second directory had much larger files, which I eventually realized was a higher resolution stream of the music. (I used a program which extracted the individual channels from the files in the second directory, and saw there was at least 4 individual channels).

Oddly enough, there was no encryption on the "dvd-audio" directory of this Beatles Love dvd-audio disc.

Yes, they had the DTS 5.1 mix on the video files
But when you went into the audio, TS files

That's where you got the PCM 96 kHz 24 bit 5.1 mix of the album

Which is just stellar

Taken from the magnetic stems from the original recording sessions mixed by Giles Martin, I believe for the Cirque du Soleil

That album is a masterpiece
It's just pure Beatles beauty

The 5.1 mix is incredible but listening to it 96/24 my God it woke me up

 

[Wes Candela]

Other oddities I found in $3 dump bins around 15 years ago, were double-sided flipper discs where one side was a generic audio cd, while the other side had a dvd filesystem. The marketing term appears to have been "dualdisc".

Copying the iso filesystems from the dvd sides of these dualdisc flippers to the computer, I saw right away it had files of music streams which were a different resolution than generic 44.1/16 redbook cd.

The Judas Priest "Angel of Retribution" dualdisc, had a file on the dvd side of the flipper which appeared to be the album in 48 kHz sampling / 16 bits.

https://www.discogs.com/release/1696963-Judas-Priest-Angel-Of-Retribution

Nice How did it sound?

 

[Wes Candela]

Why 24 bits specifically ?

If 24 bits was chosen, it would have likely required a slightly larger disc diamater to hold 74 minutes.

I don't know how much the Beethoven 9th symphony story holds water, in regard to the disc size.

A CD can hold exactly 74 minutes of music – thanks to Beethoven

One of the greatest composers in history added to his musical legacy with the invention of the CD, over 150 years after he died.

www.classicfm.com

CD Length

Were CDs designed to be long enough to hold Beethoven's 9th Symphony?

www.snopes.com

Well my preference is 24 bits.
Yes, if CDs had premiered with a sample rate of 48 kHz/24 bit
We would have gotten 60 minute CDs or less, but the music would've been higher quality and we would not have had to wait for DVD audio to come out and present us with this higher resolution.

Now in terms of Herbert Von Karajan and the president of Sony being close friends, and Karajan helping push the new CD format
I do know this to be true

As for the rest of the article, I just can't say if it holds water or not because I've never heard of it before. The 1977 Herbert Von Karajan & The Berlin Philharmonic recording of Beethoven's ninth Symphony is to me the crème de la crème of his Beethoven Symphony recordings

They are now available in 192 kHz 24 bit and Dolby Atmos, which only supports 48 kHz 24 bit

But that he pressured Sony, I just can't speak to that

But I do know he was very interested in the new format, I don't know if he had anything to do with the red book sample rate and bit rate established

Maybe?

Probably not more likely...



So we are in agreement here,
I don't believe it holds water either.

 

[Wes Candela]

The two other dualdiscs were compilations from the now-defunct record label Silverline.

https://www.discogs.com/release/10419306-Various-Classic-Rock-Masters-Current-Music

https://www.discogs.com/release/15928397-Various-Heavy-Metal-Masters-

On the dvd side of these Silverline dualdiscs, there were files of the same music stream at a different resolution higher than 44.1/16.


The only tracks on these two compilations which sounded any better than the original versions, was the Motorhead song "ace of spades". It sounded like the producers went back to the studio, and did an entirely new surround mix.


In contrast, most of the other tracks sounded like a lazy/dumb surround mix where original versions had reverb added to the surround channels.

They did ace of spades in 5.1?
And it sounded good?

OK, awesome song like… Just bad ass awesome

Don't forget the Joker


Yeah, I've heard some lazy 5.1 mixes myself, I do love extracting all the channels and listening to what's been put in the rear speakers

And listening to the isolated vocal tracks from the center speakers

I always find that fascinating in early 5.1 mixes
I wasn't aware of ace of spades being among them though.