Here's a solution to saving music: hidef video

Discussion in 'Music' started by Lee Scoggins, Oct 20, 2004.

  1. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I think there is a larger problem and solution here.

    Looking back at the history of our discussion of hirez music, it seems that for the entire industry to be excited new hardware sales must be driven and they must see consumers willing to replace their inventory for new titles or better version of same titles.

    The key here is likely the next DVD format like BluRay. I don't understand why the music industry is not working with their counterparts to launch a new hirez CD standard playable on BluRay with videos while they are gearing up for a massive hidef video launch.

    It just seems to me that there would be several advantages:
    1. Spread costs out more between a larger group of companies.
    2. Piggyback on some upcoming wide publicity.
    3. Create a standard for ONE BOX to handle music and movies.
    4. Maybe have even better sonic quality by using faster sampling rates allowed by BluRay storage capacity.
    5. Combine channels like BluRay has done in getting it almost adopted as a PC data storage medium. The retailers often sell PCs, music, and movies. Why not one format for all three? The consumer would love this I think....Use one box and one storage standard for photos, home videos, movies, music, PC data backup, etc. It would certainly lower production costs due to economies of scale for the hardware/software guys.

    Wouldn't it be cool to buy Kill Bill in hidef video and then be able to put the disc in your car and listen to the 5,6,7,8s? That would be real value delivered to the consumer.

    You can see the ads:

    a) Now available Kill Bill Volume 1 for $22 including a fully playable soundtrack.

    b) The Beatles Help now available with a collection of their greatest hits.

    It just seems that going in a combined fashion after the consumer entertainment dollar would be a good way to go. Plus, it appears the DVD crowd has a better track record and more talent overall.

    What do you think? Do you agree or disagree?
     
  2. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Based on the lack of success of SACD and DVD-A (and I bet DualDisc too), I am personally starting to have the feeling that Joe SixPack who is happy enough with MP3 audio quality, will *also* be happy enough with std DVD video quality, and that HD-DVD might also go nowhere fast.

    And I will add to that, that CD didn't overwhelm the lp because it was any better quality (because it is actually worse), but because it's gosh darn more convenient.

    Same-o for VHS to DVD. The average person didn't switch for *quality*, they switched for convenience. So, ... not us the members of this forum, but Joe and Jane SixPack, I don't think they will give a hoot about *any* high res formats.
     
  3. charles white

    charles white Second Unit

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    Nice concept, maybe a few years ahead of its time. I can see a couple of problems bringing high def music and high def video together in the same package, not one of being the problem of royalties to musicians and composers. And while decent sized high def TV set still cost in the $1500-$2500 range(more than Joe & Jane Sixpack are willing to spend), these TVs need to hit the magic $899 range(it worked for personal computers). And Sony are the new owners of MGM with its huge movie catalog for its Blu-Ray format, that other high-def DVD format still looms in the future, too, wanting to be the industry standard. Like SACD and DVD-A, we don't need another format war for high def DVD.
     
  4. Marc Colella

    Marc Colella Cinematographer

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    It'd be nice for the consumers, but it will sacrifice profits for the labels.

    Sony and WB (for example) want to sell a copy of the CD and a copy of the movie. They'll happily bundle both only if they can increase the price - but then you're pissing off consumers who only want the movie or only want the CD.

    This will work better for movies and their soundtracks (even though I'm sure licensing will be an issue) - but soundtracks on Hi-Rez isn't going to move the music industry towards Hi-Rez music.

    As Kevin stated, I think people are very satisfied with the current CD/MP3 format and have no motivation to move to a different audio format.
    I was talking to some coworkers this morning, and a few of them have their PC hooked up to their home theatre so they can play their music. I'm surprised at how many people are doing this.

    I can honestly see the next step in home audio being MP3 jukeboxes that'll hook-up to your home stereo. People will be able to connect them to their computer and copy MP3s onto them. It'll be similar to a TIVO device. I think these some of these devices exist already.

    People won't move to something new unless it offers convenience. Having thousands of songs immediately accessable to you is a major convenience.
     
  5. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Marc,

    I agree with you very much on the convenience aspect but I do think a concerted effort by the entire entertainment industry to BluRay or equivalent could establish a newer, higher quality CD format.

    People who listen to MP3 and than to SACD are very aware of the sonic differences. The problem is that the industry has not highlighted these differences in a meaningful way. They could but they are poorly managed companies.

    It's an education issue, not a consumer desire issue in my opinion.
     
  6. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I think I need to clarify a few things:

    I am only proposing movies and music together as one example.

    I am also proposing that working on one single music/movie/data standard would also help individual releases such as CD only products and movie only products.

    Part of the beauty of this is one format for everything and the lower costs to build hardware as a result.

    Another example:
    Wouldn't it be cool to play CDs, Red Book or Hirez, on a PC will no special adaptation or special sound cards?
     
  7. charles white

    charles white Second Unit

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    Minus SACD, my PC(DVD-A and CD) does that now. I'm in no hurry for the inevitable all-in-one Windows based personal computer/audio/video home entertainment/home networking and distribution consumer electronics boxes coming from Dell, Gateway and Hewlett-Packard. And it's coming. I don't want to be a pessimist but the marriage of audio and video from the music and motion picture industries won't work. The movie studios are enjoying nice profits now from DVD sales and probably not willing to share that success with the music industry. Meanwhile, the music industry still wants its cake and eat it, too by attempting to stop illegal music downloads, opening online music stores and still charge $15.99 for new CD releases by the few remaining big stars. But Lee, it's a wonderful concept.
     
  8. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    "The movie studios are enjoying nice profits now from DVD sales and probably not willing to share that success with the music industry."

    Often the movie and music industry players are owned by the same entertainment company. Sony and Columbia for instance. They are enjoying nice profits from DVD but these year over year growth is slowing down, hence the need for BluRay and hidef options. By sharing production costs with BluRay, music firms would have access to ultimately much smaller per disc mfg charges.

    I'm also not saying that the music business does not need to address the downloading option. I think they should attack that also. But if they are to remain as profitable as they would like, they need to drive more disc sales.

    Since it is difficult to drive those sales on a "music only" basis then bundling marketing costs with the next big entertainment thing (which has to be hidef by my reckoning) is the only way to go.
     
  9. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Well ok Lee, I'm all for this.

    At present there is zero provision for DSD in either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, so that would mean Hi-Res PCM. Current specs for HD-DVD are up to 8 channels @ 24/96K or up to 6 channels @ 24/192K.

    I haven't seen anything beyond 6 channels @ 24/96K for Blu-ray, but the audio limits haven't gotten as much attention so my information about channel count could be out of date.

    Cheers,
     
  10. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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    Assuming that Sony came out with a new SACD format that was not copy protected, and that Apple came out with a 40 GB iPod with SACD DSD codec support, how many SACD albums would fit on that iPod? Five to ten? That would not be much of a SACD jukebox.

    Until miniature (HD / flash) storage capacities get a LOT larger, there will be a role for codecs such as MP3 and AAC. Even for those of us who prefer to purchase all of the master copies of our music on optical discs.
     
  11. Marc Colella

    Marc Colella Cinematographer

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    Sounds good to me - HiRez PCM is the way to go.

    Now I wonder if any labels will take advantage the extra space on High Definition discs.
     
  12. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Right Thomas. This supports my point regarding having to address the downloads as well.

    My point is that the introduction of hidefy video represents an unprecedented opportunity for music, data, and movies to link up and cross-sell driving down costs (and profits up) in the process. That benefits consumers if it can be done.

    Why not have two options for buying music: (1) MP3 quality (or even Redbook I guess) by download at approx. $1 a song or (2) BluRay/HD-DVD disc with some video features and hirez layer.

    The problem with DualDisc right now is the WSJ yesterday said it would sell for $19 a disc. That's very high, some $4-6 above a regular CD. They are only going to establish a niche with this level of pricing and retailer interest will wane...look at the niche market of SACD as an example. It's a small but successfull market but few want to buy in at $20-22 per disc on average.

    I feel the music business is not answering the competitive threat posed by MP3...they need to enhance CDs with more features at the SAME or LOWER price. And also offer a viable legal download option.

    They just don't get it.
     
  13. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Screenwriter

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    Here's my solution for saving music: give us a little freakin' variety and quit making everything sound the same!
     

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