Help bi-wiring my speakers...

Discussion in 'Speakers & Subwoofers' started by tobias sands, Jun 6, 2003.

  1. tobias sands

    tobias sands Auditioning

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    I'm about to wire up a Yammy 2300 to a pair of Kef Q5's. I could Bi-wire in the normal sense which is pretty straight forward (1 output on amp to the two separate inputs on the speaker x4) or I could use the Main A + B outs on the amp as separate circuits (A=Hi B=Lo to Hi/Lo on Spkrs). Is there any advantage in doing this and does this affect the impedance setting? The speakers are rated a 8 Ohms overall. If I'm running one amp circuit into the low end and another into the high end does this change things???

    Any help would be greatly appreciated as I've getting myself rather confused over this... and I want to wire them up tonight!
     
  2. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    I doubt that you can use both the A and the B posts of the
    Yamaha at the same time (do the directions state that you
    can do this?) if you can then this would be Bi-Amping not
    Bi Wiring per se.. But I doubt it will work.. Most recievers
    don't allow you to use both the A plus the B posts at the
    same time (because the internal amps can't handle it).
     
  3. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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  4. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Brian,

    It depends if those amp channels are the same.... If they
    are seperate channels for A and B then it would be Bi Amp
    whether it's in the same amp case or not, means nothing.

    But I still don't think you can do it with the Yammy and I
    wouldn't do it anyway..
     
  5. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    Generally they're parallel and no you wouldn't be getting any sort of an advantage doing that. Biwiring doesn't hurt and helps the economy.
     
  6. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    Most Yammi's are parralle on the A B speaker outs.

    Also most will allow you to run both A&B at the same time. Most receivers have the switch on the back if the ohm load it's feeding is below 8-ohm and or or if you are running both A&B main channels.
    No matter if you use both A&B to feed Hi Low on your speakers, or just double wire from either the A or B posts, it will be Bi-wiring and not Bi-Amping.....

    Bi-Amping requires "2 seperate amps", (generaly the same model is said to be prefered).
    Much more complicated than just the 2-amps and won't bother with attempting to put my 2-cents in as the arguements & approachs to it usually will begin.

    Some much is written about this area, (Bi-Amping) it will make your head spin.
    Also the many arguments/approachs of the proper way to implament true Bi-Amping of a speaker is somewhat slightly noted here already! [​IMG]

    A quick search here at HTF and at Google will bring all the Bi-Amp/Bi-Wire reading your head can stand...

    Regards
    Geoff
     
  7. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    See this is where I disagree about BiAmping..

    In the case of the Yamaha and every other reciever I know
    of.. You can't Bi Amp...

    But say you have a 5 channel power amp... And say you run
    4 of those channels off the same stereo feed and send the
    output of all 4 to a pair of speakers LF and HF regions.
    That is Bi Amping reguardless if it's in one chasis or
    not [​IMG]
     
  8. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

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    Brett,

    But you're still running off the same power supply (depending on the amp of course). So generally there are no gains to using multiple channels of the same amp for bi-amping.

    Notice I said "generally". There are special cases like dual-mono designs that are literally two separate amps in a single chassis.
     
  9. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    John,

    Hmm it seems quite obvious to me that the advantage is
    twice as much power... Say you have a 5 channel x 200
    watts a channel.. Wire each speaker with one channel that's
    200 watts total.. Bi Amp with dual channels on one speaker
    and that's 200 watts per section of crossover network or in
    other words 200 to the low, 200 to the high.. Seems fairly
    obvious to me. Any "good" multichannel amp is either going
    to have one massive PS or multiple massive PS's and should
    be rated at power with all channels driven.. In one case or
    not, if you are using 2 amp channels to drive one speaker
    that is Bi Amping. I know the Ideal method is 2 seperate
    amps and that's the way I do it.. I am just pointing out
    that one multichannel amp can be used to Bi Amp also.
     
  10. RichardHOS

    RichardHOS Second Unit

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    The benefit of biamping isn't having a separate power supply for each amp section, but rather it gives you the ability to use active crossovers. With active crossovers, it wouldn't matter if you had twenty amp channels all in the same chassis using a common power supply... you're still getting the primary benefit of biamping.

    If you're not going to use active crossovers, biamping is a rather pointless waste of money (typically called "passive" biamping), much as is biwiring.
     
  11. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Rich,

    Being able to insert Active Crossovers is not the most
    important reason for having a true Bi Amp speaker set or
    a multi channel amp or seperate mono blocks or even a pair
    of stereo pairs. With active crossovers how do you address
    Lobing, Baffle Step Compensation etc?

    Active Crossovers are beneficial no doubt, but that's not
    close to being the only reason to Bi Amp.

    Bi Amplification allows you to run more power to each
    section. It allows you the flexibility to mingle Tube and
    Solid State, It allows you to run the ultimate in seperation
    by using true Mono Blocks for each channel and alows you
    to tailor the output of each section more precisely.
     
  12. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    If you want to mix the sound of two different amplifiers, passive bi-amping will work great. I tried it. But it seemed like using one good amplifier full range sounded better than using the good amp for the treble and some other amp (like a receiver) for the bass. Maybe the situation is different with active bi-amping.
     
  13. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    See what happens![​IMG]

    Same thing seems everytime, thats why my 2 cents stayed here and not on the board.. [​IMG]

    Hows the Bi-Amping going Tobias?

    Allot of good points brought up I'll add, like your argument Brett, interesting point of view....

    Regards
    Geoff
     
  14. tobias sands

    tobias sands Auditioning

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    OK, biwired out of the regular 'A' outputs and left the 'B' well alone. Speakers are still breaking and in sound better and better each day. Once they've settled down I'll compare the bi-wire with single cable to see whether it really makes much of a difference, though I'm pretty sure it won't to me. Incidentally, the amp does allow you to select both sets of main speakers at the same time, but there is no info at all, apart from stuff on the impedance settings, on parallel/series and separate amps for these channels. The manual is on-line at the Yamaha website, but I really couldn't find anything else on it.
     
  15. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    Good choice. Those A and B are really designed to be used one at a time. If you had 2 sets of 4 ohm speakers running loud, the amps would probably overload. And there is zero chance that Yamaha built in a duplicate set of amps for the "B" side- Only dedicated distribution amps are designed that way. Ten amp channels when 95% of users would use only one set 95% if the time- I don't think so.

    If you want to test biwiring, the easiest way is to simply remove and replace the shorting bars. Having the bars in place negates the biwiring condition, although it does increase effective wire gage size. Also if you think there is a clear difference, confirm this by listening blind- have someone else remove and replace the bars. You will find all differences vanish.
     
  16. tobias sands

    tobias sands Auditioning

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    Yep, I'm still unsure on the whole Bi-wire thing. This is the best stereo kit I've bought so far, especially the speakers and I didn't see much difference at all last night (I tried it blind) Maybe I'll become more attuned, or the speakers break in more, but I doubt it. Still, it kicks arse big time, so I'm happy. Cheers for the discussion though, gave me a lot to think about.
     

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