HE 12.1's-- will they have the typical "horn (Klipsch) sound"

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by KyleGS, May 3, 2003.

  1. KyleGS

    KyleGS Second Unit

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm interested in purchasing these for a game room. Will they have the same "personality" of a horn? I really don't know a whole lot about horns or compression tweeters. Are they one in the same or related at all?

    Do the Klipsch's use compression tweeters like the HE12.1?

    I want the effortless, fast, dynamic sound of a horn that I hear in my friend's Klipsch Tangents. Am I looking in the right direction?

    Thanks
     
  2. Jonathan T

    Jonathan T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you want horn sound, your going to have to get a horn. I don't have these speakers but I hear they are more lively and give a nice feeling of a live performance, but they are not even close to the energetic and effortless feeling of sound a horn can give you.
     
  3. CarlDais

    CarlDais Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2000
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kyle,
    as Jonathan stated the 12.1 are not horns and don't sound like horns. The design objective was to create a nice sounding High Efficiency speaker with semi-conventionaal drivers. The sound is good and lively. It also has an adire commonality.
    Mr Wiggins simply used Existing Drivers (Emminence) in a somewhat unique configuration. Namely a 10" or 12" driver with a concentric Horn Loaded Tweeter.
    The net result being 95+ dB sensitivity and a benign Impedance load for a variety of amplifier choices... namely tubes of many sorts and configurations. And Adire largely succeeded in their deign goals. I have 10.1 speakers. I have heard them in an all tube HT set-up. They perform well for what they are. They are not horns.

    If you're looking for Dynamic Horn Sound... look to horns.
    Such as Pi speakers...The Horne Shop... etc. GO over to Audio Asylum and look up the High Efficeiency speaker's Forum. There are lotsa good choices.

    You might want to check out other speaker design choices.
    Dual Concentric Tannoys... Single Driver (no X-over) speakers ( Omega... Moth...Hammer Dynamics etc..)
     
  4. Jonathan T

    Jonathan T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    KyleGs, don't get me wrong, they aren't hornes but I still plan on picking some up for myself.
     
  5. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think the Klipsch Tangents are fully horn-loaded either. They use a direct radiator woofer, right? They are not horn speakers any more than the HE12.1s are.

    I'm sure the HE12.1s have pretty good dynamics as long as you don't feed them much bass. There's no telling how much they sound like the Klipschs (at least in terms of their "tone"). And, you may want at least 20 watts to get the most out of them. (I keep recommending higher power amplifiers because I don't yet understand what gives an amp a dynamic sound besides its power capability.)
     
  6. Henry_W

    Henry_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Folks are hitting this nail on the head - many horn speakers for the home concentrate on the mid frequencies to high frquencies for horns and then match that with a high efficiency non horn loaded woofer. This is the easiest way to get the desired horn dynamics with out having to build the large horns necessary to handle such a large wavelength generated by the LF. The purist will have the corner assisted or very large folded front bass bins - but for quite a few of us, we can't afford the space.

    The 12.1 will not sound like the horns. While I haven't listened to them - I have built some similar boxes and I know the parts are quality - you should get a darn good sound. Build them and if you don't like them treat us like the salvation army - someone here will be glad to relieve you of the speakers...
     
  7. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2000
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    0
    >I really don't know a whole lot about horns or compression tweeters. Are they one in the same or related at all?
    ====
    Yes, a compression driver is a small type 1 bandpass design tuned very high and coupled to a baffle (horn) shaped in such a way and sized to allow the driver to reproduce a much wider BW/higher efficiency than it could in free air or on a flat baffle.
    ====
    >I'm sure the HE12.1s have pretty good dynamics as long as you don't feed them much bass.
    ====
    ???? Please elaborate. I did a sim that indicates it can make almost 100dB/W/m down to 70Hz in a ML-TL and the program has been spot on to date, so I'm pretty confident it's no fluke. If you mean true sub BW, no they won't do it at high volume, but then, that's what subs are for. [​IMG]
    ====
    > There's no telling how much they sound like the Klipschs (at least in terms of their "tone").
    ====
    Not having heard them, but very familiar with both design concepts, they won't be even close, and though I'm a 'hornie', every Klipsch except the Heresy I've heard sounds way too 'PA' WRT natural reproduction Vs a coincident driver.
    ====
    > And, you may want at least 20 watts to get the most out of them. (I keep recommending higher power amplifiers because I don't yet understand what gives an amp a dynamic sound besides its power capability.)
    ====
    Peak voltage output, slew rate, amount of negative feedback, bandwidth, sufficent sustained current. If the amp doesn't have enough power/BW to reproduce the transient attack, enough slew rate to track the decay, and sufficient current to handle LF signals...... Factor in that the > the nfb, the more out of phase signal is being injected back into the incoming signal.......

    FWIW, on the subject of good SS design, here's what I've arrived at:

    Modest damping factor. Say, 200 or so. Any more and it is wasted and tends
    to indicate large loop NFB figures.

    Modest THD. Say, around 0.1% or so. Any lower than this and again high
    levels or loop NFB are indicated. Any higher than ~ 0.5% and some coloration
    may be audible.

    Flat frequency response from AT LEAST 1Hz to 100kHz (200kHz preferred).
    This will ensure a flat phase response over the pass band. For subs, the upper
    limit can be reduced to 10x the XO point, so it's the lower cutoff that's
    important here. Down to DC would be the ideal. An efficent sub and an old
    Crown DC series amp makes great sounding bass.

    Lowest attainable dynamic headroom figures. Say, 1dB or less. High dynamic
    headroom figures indicate a poorly regulated power supply, or worse, a
    modulated voltage power supply, which can seriously degrade the sound.

    High current capability. Look for stable performance into at least 2ohm
    loads.

    Look for a big power transformer and plenty of filter capacitance.

    BTW, no NFB would be the ideal, but I don't know of any SS amps that has
    none.

    GM
     
  8. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greg's right, the HE12.1 are capable of plenty of midbass (I wouldn't set them to large for watching movies though). And thanks for the tips about amplifiers... though I still don't understand what affects the sound when they're not near any power limits.
     
  9. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2000
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the above except for the stiff power supply, though it still has to be sufficient for +30dB transients. Also, the assumption here is that at least for the first 10 watts it's in class A mode, IOW it's a class A/B amp, to further reduce -nfb, etc.. As the guys over on the HE forum like to say, "the first watt is the most important one since this is where it will be spending most of its operating time." For typical consumer speakers, it's the first 10-15W.

    GM
     
  10. KyleGS

    KyleGS Second Unit

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK- I think I'm understanding a little better. I guess I'm chasing that live sound. I recently heard the Fleetwood Mac DVD concert (The Dance) on a set of Klipsch Tangents and it really felt like I was sitting on the front row center. My S38's and H/K combo just don't come anywhere close to that experience. Greg what do you think about the Parasound 1500a? It seems to have many of the features you listed for a decent amp.
     

Share This Page