HDTV buffs, 720p versus 1080i in games

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Ben_E, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. Ben_E

    Ben_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Hey all, I have a question. I've heard that NBA2k3 for the Xbox supports 720p. Now my question is if they can get it to 720p how much harder is it to go to 1080i? I mean if its not that much harder I don't understand why they wouldn't when most HDTVs can't do 720p and if they can they have to upconvert anyways (still pretty rare). How much more processing power would it take to get it to 1080i?
     
  2. Brajesh Upadhyay

    Brajesh Upadhyay Supporting Actor

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    I think the new 'Lord of the Rings' xbox game will be 1080i. 1080i actually requires less space/bandwidth than 720p. I too am surprised why 720p is being chosen more over 1080i -- only a limited number of displays can do 720p natively. At this point, I don't think there are any HD games on the market, so we'll have to see what develops.
    This site has some info on HDTV gaming.
     
  3. Adam Tyner

    Adam Tyner Screenwriter

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    There are a handful -- NBA2K3 and Street Hoops on the XBox, to name a couple. The 1080i Dragon's Lair 3D is on the way, and a respectable smattering of 720p titles are rumored...
    HD gaming is a fairly frequent topic of discussion on the HTF's Video Game Software forum.
     
  4. Ben_E

    Ben_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Whoops, dang registered here and didn't even know this forum existed, would have posted here if I would have known heh, glad I do now though. Thanks Adam, thats the answer I was looking for, no wonder 1080i isn't used in games yet. I'm hoping this will change for Halo2 due out next year around christmas time. So far the game looks great and uses less polygons due to a huge increase in pixel shader usage.
     
  5. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    Don't most HD sets convert 720p to 1080i? -or is that only a feature of the set-top box/HD decoder?
     
  6. Brajesh Upadhyay

    Brajesh Upadhyay Supporting Actor

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    Adam, thanks for correcting me :b. Better find out more before I spring for my xbox.
     
  7. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    720P would be better with graphics anyway for lack of aliasing artifacting.

    Also, it's not a good idea to run video games into a CRT projection set for extended time (most of which are 1080I), however, the host of new digital displays based on the TI DLP 16x9 chip are native 720P machines and can shine graphics all day long with no burn-in.

    so 720P makes good sense to me (and can be converted to 1080I for those without 720P capability).

    -dave
     
  8. Ben_E

    Ben_E Stunt Coordinator

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    David, aliasing artifacting? Is this just another word for bad aliasing? If so I'm not sure it would be there since 1080i is quite higher in resolution. Again not sure though.
     
  9. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Ben,

    have you watched any sports in 1080I? Basket ball and hockey show aliasing VERY CLEARLY when the lines on the court/field change angle on the screen. 1080I may have lots of "resolution" in one sense, but it's still riddeled with old-fashioned video aliasing with hard-lines that tilt at an angle on the screen.

    720P has virtually none of this. So considering the sharp lines and diagonal angles you're likely to encounter in video-game iamges, I think the progressive-scan of 720P is a good fit.

    Also, as far as "video games" go, just because the final format might have been 1080I doesn't mean that's the real reasolution of the game image. Most video games now basically have 240P resolution and they "double" this for 480I output. (some deinterlacers even have a separate algorithm to handle "video game" line-doubling for this reason). Digital images would start out their life in progressive-scan, and it would be nice to keep them that way. A 720P HD video-game image could literlly be just that...whereas there would have to be some sort of filter or processer to convert any video game output to *any* interlaced signal. For this reason, there's not really always an 'improvement' when one takes (live video here) the step from 720P to 1080I. In most cases, the 720P image looks better (transfering from film source is a different matter).

    Now 1080P. *that* would be an awsome video-game experience that would be a definite raise-of-the-bar!

    -dave
     
  10. Ben_E

    Ben_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Now I see, cool thanks for pointing that out. Whats the image quality of sets like the new Sony XBR 36" that convert 720p to 1080i?
     
  11. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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    The X-Box really doesn't have the bandwidth to do 1080i (maybe as a side scroller which no one does anymore).

    I'm facing the same issues right now, and 1080i just isn't going to work (and MS has more or less confirmed this). So 720p is about as good as we can possibly get.
     
  12. Andrew s wells

    Andrew s wells Second Unit

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    Dragons lair is 1080i and not a side scroller.[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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  14. Dave E H

    Dave E H Supporting Actor

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    WHen people think HDTV's convert a 720p signal to 1080i, isn't that normally done by the HDTV box? I've been thinking about this and if it would work on my Mits 55857, and I think that for the XBox games to display properly from 720p, that the xbox would have to do the conversion, as the tv doesn't support 720p natively. I believe the input only takes 480i,480p and 1080i. My HDTV receiver, when get a 720p signal, converts it to 1080i before sending it the the TV I think.

    Isn't this right? If a game in 720p, the only way to get it on the TV would be for the Xbox to convert it right? Or is there an outboard processor that can do this?
     
  15. Eric F

    Eric F Screenwriter

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    Some TVs have different ways of dealing with resolutions they can't handle. Of course if you know what resolutions your TV supports (it should say in the user's manual) you should input the appropriate ones into the X-Box Dash.

    There are some tvs that output 1080i-540p, 480p-540p, 720p-1080i, 720p-540p, the list goes on and on. My HDTV can handle up to 1125i natively, so I'm all set. I actually output everything from my PC-HDTV card @ 1280*768p.
     
  16. Scott "E"

    Scott "E" Second Unit

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    There is a very good article here.
     
  17. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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  18. Sean Oneil

    Sean Oneil Supporting Actor

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    It has also been said that the X-Box can only render at up to 1024x768, which means that there will be no true 1080i games on the X-Box, only up-converted 1024x768 rez.
     
  19. Ben_E

    Ben_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Hope thats not true Sean. But I am still confident that we will see good looking 1080i games in the future due to increased pixel shader and vertex shader usage in game. As it is the only 2 games that are seriously starting to use them is Halo 2 and Abducted (at least that I know of). Heres some Abducted screenshots:
    http://www.teamxbox.com/screenthumbs.php?gid=395
    Looks extremely good so far. And I know in Halo 2 Master Chief actually uses less polygons than in Halo 1, yet looks a hell of a lot better (due to increased pixel shader usage). Hopefully Nvidia's CG language can help with this with titles coming at the middle to end of 2003 and beyond. Less polygons needed, less power needed to put them on the screen.
     
  20. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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    Ben , polygons are only part of the issue. there's a whole lot more to it than polygons. In fact, the hardware these days can push a lot of polys. Even the Playstation 1 could push a ton of polys. Problem was no one wanted a ton of flat shaded polys in their games.

    There's CPU usage, streaming speeds from the disc, texture sizes, the number of textures, the underlying game code, and a whole lot more. All these take overhead on the system.
     

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