HDTV and DVI: A Very Important Article (1 Viewer)

[TylerL]

That figures Masood...you didn't even read my post, or you didn't comprehand it (can't knock you for that i guess).

My point is this: so what if they copy the signal...if they do what i said it will be impossible for them to record it to a DVD-R...thus they will have no where to put the new data...unless they just keep it on the hard drive...who wants to install a new 30 gig hard drive for every new movie that comes out?

It's like this: look at the cable tv industry (just talking about normal, analog cable tv). Every new house is automatically hard wired to the source...and you can in fact receive the source for free! But unless you have proof of purchese (ie paying a monthly bill for cable...or having a physically recognizable HD-DVD) you will get nothing but scrambled garbage.

It makes perfect sense...i would not be surprised at all if the MPAA choose to go with this route. It saves everyone (except those without DVI) the headache and they get to use their fancy new encryption protocals.

 

[Francois Plouffe]

TylerL,

Alright, I surrender.

If what you say materialize, then everobody will be happy.

We all going to buy this hypotetical HD-DVD that decypher the HDCP. This player will have both DVI and component output, because since it is now legal to output decyphered HD content through DVI, why would it be impossible to output it through component also? After all, we all know that the analog technology is provend and has more than enough bandwith to support HD feed. My computer monitor can handle resolution greater than what is defined in the HD standard with razor sharp result.

You will have your HD feed through your precious DVI port and we will have it through component. Who said there is a problem with HDCP??

This is of course all hypothetical. Can we just wait and move on to the real stuff?

Still, we should go on with the petition, just in case the MPAA decide otherwise than what you think TylerL. We *ALL* going to be screwed, including you TylerL, don't you think.

That is my last post on the subject.

 

[AjayM]

This way..people already with DVI won't have to worry if their DVI is compatible yet the HD-DVD can still be sent via untainted digital means.

Well then it can easily be converted to analog, so everybody is happy. DVI is just a digital connection, it won't be that long when an un-encrypted digital video signal will be converted to analog. Either that or you are just making up some far-fetched, non thought out scenerio that you think will somehow make your dad's DVI equipped machine better than other people's here.

Andrew

 

[Dan Clark]

There are a few content sources now that provide 1080i analog, but they can't offer the digital connections on the same unit per the license agreements. Expect to see these 1080i analog devices disappear fast, because the studios consider them a threat.

The author's conclusion that analog-only HDTV owners will be left in the cold seems like a lot of speculation. Yes, I suspect the studios are somewhat concerned with unencrypted analog HD content, but the majority of this article is about what the studios plan to do about sending DIGITAL HD content to digital display devices (IE a plasma set).

I'm just wondering if a little too much is being read between the lines here? Have the studios actually said that future HD-DVD units cannot send out an analog HD signal -or- have they simply stated that any digital HD signals output must be encrypted? Does anyone know anything about these "license agreements" mentioned in the article that would prohibit analog and digital connections on the same source unit?

Regards, Dan

 

[Masood Ali]

It makes perfect sense...i would not be surprised at all if the MPAA choose to go with this route. It saves everyone (except those without DVI) the headache and they get to use their fancy new encryption protocals.

Sure it makes perfect sense...to you. In fact, everyone on this forum would love it if the MPAA catered their policies to benefit themselves. However, unless you are somehow employed by the MPAA, nobody is holding their breath of your "dream" scenario becoming a reality; it's just hearsay.
The simple fact is, your DVI connector is as useless as our analog component connectors. We sink together or we swim together. Any solution you suggest as your savior will be a savior for all of us.
Thanks for the high-school level discussion.

 

[JohnD_R_Rocha]

I think Dan Clark's point/question is what I'm wondering about.

I originally was just thinking about HD-DVD and ready to shrug off this whole DVI HDCP stuff.

Then I got back to the idea of HD-satellite and HD-cable versus OTA HD signals. Setting up an OTA antenna and pairing my 2001 model Toshiba 57H81(no DVI input) with say a Toshiba DST3000 HD receiver using component cables I can get beautiful HD content from the major network broadcasts(ie CBS, ABC, or even PBS). I could also currently get wonderful HD content via DirecTV on HD.net and HBO-HD. This all working with "old" technology mind you.

Here's where my worries come in now. I of course do not have a DVI input on my TV. The switch to HD receivers with DVI outputs would thus require some type of conversion to analog component input for my TV. I can live without HD-satellite/cable, but would my OTA HD content also be in jeopardy since this would violate the DVI HDCP standards? OTA HD content wouldn't seem to have any relationship to the MPAA at all and its desires for copy protection using HDCP.

As soon as that petition is ready, I'll be ready to add my DIGITAL signature to it.

 

[Aleksei S]

Hey Matt,

I thought your wording for the petition looked fine. I'm very interested in getting that going, where to do I sign???

And what does happen if I mess with Happy Fun Ball?? :b

This thread certainly has been interesting, how does it feel to start an avalanche Chuck?

Now, can we all just focus! This issue is too important to lose this thread. Stop the bickering, it takes away from which ever side of the disscusion you are on.

As for me, I'm still waiting for my rebate check, but when it comes I'm getting a new HDTV, without DVI. I can't pretend to understand the finer points of the various sides here, but there are some things I do know:

1) Current HDTV sets have better pictures than non-HDTV sets for the majority of applications right now.

2) If HD-DVD does incorporate HDCP, then there will probably be a market for DVDs, much like there was for Beta tapes, for consumers without HDCP decoding (albeit at a lower resolution).

3) I won't be purchasing items from companies that leave non-HDCP complient consumers out in the cold.

4) I have a hard time waiting for anything, especially new toys, especially when I get the rare chunk of cash. So I cannot wait till fall. Heck, it's so bad that if I go shopping for HDTVs during the day it is painful to watch the set I have at home.

5)Wow, four things. I think thats a new record for things I know (or think I know). Sorry, just a little levity, I thought this thread could use it.

Cheers,

Alex

 

[JohnD_R_Rocha]

Does anyone feel that this situation could end up like the current situation with cable converter boxes?

That is to say that if you want to use PPV or premium channels(ie HBO, Showtime, etc) that you will need a STB with DVI output and a TV with DVI+HDCP input. However if you wanted to get plain vanilla OTA stuff and GENERIC cable/satellite channels(TNT, MTV, ESPN, etc.) you could use an "older" model STB with something like component out hooked into component in on our pre-Fall2002 model "HD-ready" TVs?

 

[Masood Ali]

JohnD, strict adherence to the new standards would definitely make your theory a reality.

However, strict adherence to the new standards would probably also make these companies the least amount of money possible, considering the time it takes for new technology (HDCP enable TVs) to make any significant penetration in the market. For that reason, I don't think they'd want to alienate us right away.

 

[John-Miles]

Well first of all I want to say this is a great discusion (certain comments not withstanding) I have already contacted sony panasonic and toshiba regarding this matter, (God only knows what if anythign they will ever tell me, but when they do reply i will be sure to share anythign relevant)
Yes I know my typing is bad, but hey im an engineer, not an arts guy
I know I am planning to buy a HDTV set, and well it seems that if a DVI HDCP compatible tv in the works for 2002 then i think i will wait the few agonizing months... ahhh but i dont want to. But in anycase im definitely signing this petition.
As a final note its my opinon (haha for whatever that is worth) that this encryption would likely only affect dvd's since its the MPAA pushing this, HD signals are already available, i dont see them messing much with that now, it would only annoy well everyone.
well thats all for now folks.

 

[GlenH]

I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this, but, Tyler, you really need to educate yourself on this issue before gloating and insulting people on this message board. Please note the following:
1. Your assumption that your plasma display (or should I say, your dad's plasma display) is compatible with HDCP is completely erroneous. If it does not already support DVI/HDCP, it NEVER will in the future.
2. The idea of being able to use some sort of adapter to somehow turn your plasma into an HDCP compliant device is pure fantasy. As Masood, Francios and others have already pointed out, having this fantasy adapter defeats the whole purpose of HDCP encryption and copy protection in the first place. Not only that, but the DMCA expressly forbids ANY device that defeats copy protection.
3. If somehow your fantasy becomes a reality (something which I wouldn't mind happening at all, but unfortunately will not occur) then ALL current HDTV owners would also, be "golden" as you put it. Why? Because anyone could easily use a DVI to analog component adapter and hook it up to the current analog HDTVs. As noted in point #2, this will not occur as it would completely defeat the whole point of encryption and copy protection in the first place.
4. Your assumption that the MPAA wouldn't dare exclude all current owners of DVI capable monitors, is also completely off base. Consider this - there are MANY MANY more non-DVI HDTVs than DVI HDTV devices on the market today. Despite this, the MPAA has no qualms at all about forcing all the electronic manufacturers and cable/satellite companies into adopting DVI/HDCP completely excluding 99.99% of their current customers now. What makes you think they would even flinch at excluding the .00001% of DVI capable HDTV displays in the market place now?
5. Your comprehension of HD-DVD technology is serious flawed. In case you didn't know, HD-DVD is based on a different technology than current DVD technology. The storage capacity required for HD-DVD is in the 30 GB range for a 2 hr movie. Current double sided DVDs hold only about 9 GB of data. You WILL NOT be able to "burn" a HD-DVD utilizing any of the current technology available to consumers today. Well, actually, you would be able to burn maybe 20 minutes of HD content onto a DVD, but that would take up the entire disk. Even if there were no copy protection issues, no one will be burning HD-DVDs at home for at least a few more years.
6. Yeah!!! SURRRRE your Daddy's plasma display is immune from burn in Make sure you leave that plasma display in 4x3 mode AS LONG AS YOU WANT. Yup. Plasma technology is AWESOME. ZERO BURN IN!
The truth of the matter is, plasma displays exhibit SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER burn-in than RPTVs, tube TVs or practically any other display technology out there now. Again, you are ignorant about what you speak.
7. Before you leave high school, make sure you take a few spelling classes.
8. If you want to come into this forum and start dishing crap out to the other members, stop being a little b-tch and take the criticism like a man. Besides, it seems like everyone has responded to your claims with legitimate reasons why you are wrong. At least have the courtesy of engaging in intelligent discourse about the issue at hand.
Glen

 

[dan fritzen]

This is a very good thread which expresses a lot of emotions from all of us, I myself do not own HDTV and yet relate totally to everyone of you owning a HDTV set and feeling betrayed or soon to be...

The lawsuit, probably not feesable, since when this new dvi standard is issued they can call it whatever and as long as the MPAA does not advertise their movies as HD content they should be safe, now on the other hand if they say buy this High Definition movie on a HD-DVD disc and it doesn't work with a HD compatible TV they maybe liable, it would be defective. Think in the terms of how Philips wants copy protected CD's to be appropriatly labels as non CD's since they are not readable in CD-ROM's.

Hopefully a manufacturer will make a converter from dvi to analog and will fight the MPAA in court and hopefully win.

I can't stand how everyone wants to limit what I do with what I buy. Say I buy a shovel, does the manufacturer have the right to tell me i can use a shovel to dig a hole but not to use a shovel to pick up a rock with? That is essentially what the MPAA is doing. I completely understand the concern of the MPAA with pirates but I believe movies won't be pirated as much as music and CD's. While downloading music is easy I don't beleive it will be as quick or easy to do with movies and I will continue to buy them in the future. what the MPAA and RIAA fail to realize is that while DVD's prices are so far stable and not increasing they will sell. CD's are declining because the price is too high a CD is now teh same price as a DVD yet i am only getting an hour (if that) of audio as opposed to 2 hours of audio and video. If music prices where still cheap people would still buy CD's.

 

[Thomas_Berg]

wow that is a great article. i am furious at how frikkin stupid the manufacturers are. this makes me completely rethink my TV purchase that i planned to buy this fall. geez i'm pissed off now.
my only question: is this IEEE (firewire) the same connection that DVD-A is gonna start being digitally transmitted through?

 

[Gregg Loewen]

Hi guys!

This is a semi great thread.

Warning...

Dont shit on each other!!

Gregg

 

[Chuck C]

Well Done, GlenH

 

[John Kotches]

Tyler,

You are aware that Sampo's plasma models aren't capable of HD resolution, right? All input signals are scaled to 852x480, so you aren't even seeing an HD signal....

The display will sync up to 1080i, but has to downsample to panel size.

In addition to your other misconceptions, it would appear you didn't do your homework on the display either.

Regards,

 

[efren]

I e-mailed Silicon Image about this and I got a reply saying the most we can get on analog connections from "Premium" (HBO movies, etc) content movies, is 480p. She is still unsure if the Hollywood boys are going to continue to air analog 1080i broadcasts. We all now know that Sony's fall TV sets (Widescreen Review) will have DVI AND Component connections. My guess is OTA HD feeds will remain and this will only affect us if we wanted a full, uncompressed digital resolution displayed on our screen. If not, we still get a converted 1080i. Remember back in the days when we feared that the first generation DVDs will not work with HDTV sets? Great thread, by the way. A lot of you guys really know your stuff.

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

Guys - we have received FOUR complaints about this thread. Mostly because of a select few posters. As Gregg suggests above chill out. Another complaint and the thread will be closed or members will be handed their hats.

 

[David_Rivshin]

I just wanted to add my $0.02 to this discussion, which I've followed with interest.
My reading of the DVI/HDCP restrictions essentially comes down to this: Anything originally encoded with HDCP copy protection cannot be transmitted unencrypted outside of the display device itself. This essentially means that, with the help of the wonderful DMCA, it would be illegal to make a box that took DVI/HDCP input and output it as normal HD DVI. Same goes for HD-DVD players and other source devices. The reasoning behind the MPAA's desire for such restrictions is obvious: if you can send it unencrypted you can then record the result and make a copy with any piece of standard recording equipment.
Now, there are some fine points to this. For instance, would it be legal for such a box to output 480p? Or maybe 480i over composite/svideo we be allowable? Can it be sent as analog HD, as that would still result in a generational quality loss?
The main fear of digital transmissions is that there is no generational quality loss, the copy is not only indistinguishable from the original, but identical to it. When you photocopy a book (an analog source) the copy looks inferior to the original. When you copy a VHS tape the copy looks and sounds inferior to the original. If given the choice between owning an original or a copy the average person would choose the original if the costs were the same, or even anywhere close.
This is not the first time such issues have come up. The recent digital DVD-A debate was essentially the same. The ability to have digital transmission between the DVD-A source and the pre/pro/reciever has long existed (at least for 2ch), but it was forbidden to digitally transmit DVD-A material outside of the source unencrypted. Now the reason that people were not as upset about that as the HDCP issue is twofold: An analog path was always there which was acceptable if not ideal and will likely continue to be there. Pre/pro's and recievers tend to be upgraded on a regular basis anyways, so by the time the encrypted firewire interface is available on the sources it won't be long until the other end is being upgraded to match.
TV's, however, are seen as a much longer-term investment. I don't know anyone who plans on replacing his/her TV every 2 years (if you are such a person, then I'd like to be your new best friend ) So if you've recently purchased a TV you are likely to be quite upset that for the next 5-10 years you won't have the capability that you expected would arrive in just 2-3 years. And you might be livid if you lost capabilities that you have today, if, say, satellite companies were forced to HDCP encrypt new content. I know that if that was the case I would throw a hissi-fit the likes of which was not seen since the 2000 US elections.
My personal opinion, and it is only that, is that the MPAA and RIAA are doing long term harm to our personal freedoms. However, since I do not have the disposable income to compete with their lobbying in Washington, I have to find ways to deal with the results. I'm pretty sure the HD-DVD's will be HDCP encoded, or at least the majority will be. This opinion is based on past experience with the entertainment industry, they have no problems making their software a pain in our necks since they know we'll buy it anyways. I am somewhat convinced, although not positive, that soon after new releases to TV/cable/satellite will also be HDCP encoded, although perhaps available as 480p/i concurrently. This opinion is based on past behavior of cable companies.
Based on this somewhat grim view of the future my best hope is that there will be DVI/HDCP STBs available which will output at the original resolution over component cables. This would calm the angry masses while still not allowing pure digital copies. The argument could be made that such a device would be just as useful to pirates as a digital copy would be, and I would agree with that argument. However, logic has never impeeded the MPAA before, why should it start now?
My next best hope would be a device that at least downscaled to 480p. Following that one that downscaled to 480i. The same argument holds here, of course, that holds was mentioned above. Heck, if the MPAA was worried that people would be copying DVD's to VHS tapes on a $50 VCR and selling them on the street, they'd probably be worried about shipping the video over an RF cable lest someone copy it. While I'm in rant mode I feel the need to mention one more thing: People have been known to take video cameras into movie theaters and record the video. They would then sell these tapes (and now VCDs/DVDs) on the street and people would gladly buy them. So what's next, macrovision on the theater prints? Quality rarely matters to the pirate, they would pirate 480i even more quickly than 720p, if for no other reason than because it's quicker to encode and smaller files to put on their pirate sites.
OK, so that ended up like being $.15 worth of my thoughts, but I'll only charge you $0.02 per read since I'm such a nice guy. Oh, and no copying of it or I'll sic my lawyers on you!
-- Dave

 

[Matt Stryker]

I went ahead and put up the petition; it is located at http://www.petitiononline.com/stophdcp/petition.html
Pass it on, sign it, and hopefully we can get the message to the studios that we won't tolerate this crap.
I'm going to post it over at avs as well.