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HDR/Dolby Vision discussion for elevated black levels & calibration issues.

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by ghostwind, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Message #21 of 47 Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
    David Norman

    David Norman Producer

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    Possibly, but there was a long conversation from a poster on Bluray.com who was having a fit with 2001 on his E6 with elevated Black levels and it was specifically part of Dolby Vision. Many other posters were raving about 2001 on OLED and DV, but not him. UTD firmware that fixed other disc issue like Grey Ltx bars on some titles, different players, but he couldn't get 2001 Black unless he forced his player to play HDR10.

    Yours may not be related in the least to any of this and you know you're more sensitive to Black levels, but a couple posts I'll pull over to see if it sounds at all relevant. If not then just pass on by and ignore :

    Apparently instead of a Service remote he was able to use a Logitech Harmony
     
  2. ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    I don't know how you have your TV calibrated, but again, you cannot calibrated HDR10 or Dolby Vision, only SDR. The best you can do is a 2pt white balance adjustment for HDR/DV. The brightness/contrast/color/tint/oledlight have to stay at their defaults, as the internal gamut tone mapping is based on these default values, which work as bypasses at their default positions. Any change to them would un-align the internal mapping. Some discs you will have issues with, other not. It varies from display to display, panel to panel.
     
  3. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    The "defaults" you mention are different for each picture mode. Which mode are you referring to? And another question - are you going to drag this issue into every thread about a 4K UHD title at HTF? I'm asking because, if so, you might be better served by starting a separate thread for such discussion. Just a suggestion.
     
  4. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    Thanks for the info David, but I'm pretty sure I looked at both DV and HDR, and I used two different players - an Oppo UDP-203 and a Panasonic BD-UB820. Not exactly lightweights. ;) I'll double-check this weekend.
     
  5. ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    Again, please read the article and then go on to read others - there's a lot out there if you want to see. The answer is NO, you cannot. It's that simple, no matter what people are selling.

    When you watch a Blu-ray at home, since your display can reproduce REC.709 and 100nits, and a proper gamma of 2.2 for older discs and 2.4 for most post 2008 masters/BD releases. If properly calibrated (which it can be), you KNOW you are watching a faithful representation of what was mastered in the studio on studio monitors. This is never the case for 4k UHD, unless you happen to own a $30,000 studio monitor that can display the WCG and have the necessary nits of HDR/DV. No consumer device can do this. All consumer devices can do 1080p SDR however.

    There is zero misunderstanding on my part :) It's just the reality. Again, the info is out there for you to read (if you want to). 10bit is nice, sure. But things have to work. DV is 12bit, yet no panel is 12bit :)

    I have compared plenty, and own plenty. I don't have this one, as it's not out yet, and as RAH said, the included Blu-ray is an older 2011 one.
     
  6. ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    ISF Bright or Dark Mode are the only ones you want to use. The other modes have a WP x,y that is not accurate. I was just trying to help, no need to get argumentative. There is plenty of info out there, but people believe what they want to believe. To each his own. Every thread is different, and I don't have any agendas. I'll continue to post as I see fit.
     
  7. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    :rolleyes:
     
  8. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    So much of this is flat out wrong, but will leave it at that as it's beyond the scope of this thread.
     
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  9. ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    It actually isn’t, so if you want to make that accusation then either back it up or better yet, send me a message so we don’t pollute this thread.
     
  10. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Can you please do the same in the Superman thread??
     
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  11. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    I already thought of that, but I’m in the middle of watching a movie now.
     
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  12. atcolomb

    atcolomb Screenwriter

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    On my Sony player I turned off the HDMI deep color setting and to my eyes that made the picture looking better..for me anyway.
     
  13. Message #33 of 47 Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
    Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    Points already made and backed up. However, let's face it: your mind is already made up which raises the question why you are arguing with people in a UHD movie thread when you are not in favor of the format. You've got a bone to pick with the format.

    Funny as the marketing page you linked (which is trying to sell products *ahem* - 3D LUT products are rarely required for most quality modern displays for rec 709 as it tries to persuade) actually has a section for LG Oleds which states "Procedure to Calibrate OLED TVs to meet UHD Alliance Greyscale Tracking Requirements". So much for no UHD standards at all. :rolling-smiley: Some displays are reaching 96-99% of DCI by the way too, but even a bit below that with delta errors can be below 3 and below 100% saturation is fine as hardly any movie reaches 100% saturation - only for animation. Look, I don't think UHD BD is perfect as there is tone mapping and nits involved to a more pertinent extent, but it has definitely taken films to the next level on a good set-up and there are some standards to be sure to get you right in the ballpark. 100% perfection calibration you seem to imply with Blu-ray is a panacea because even that will depend on the display type (let's not forget ABL, etc as well) as well as gamma as you have NO way to tell what gamma a Blu-ray was mastered at. Pure guessing and more than just 2.4 or 2.2....could be anything between those.
     
  14. Message #34 of 47 Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
    Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    I've moved a bunch of previous posts from the "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Superman" 4K/UHD threads into this one thread as to not sidetrack those threads. Let's remember to be respectful as we converse among ourselves regarding these disc viewing issues with 4K/UHD releases.
     
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  15. David Norman

    David Norman Producer

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    I wasn't sure what you had already tried . It was the OLED panels and not the players at issue in case I wasn't clear -- I think the problem poster was using a Sony and LG while the guys offering the Solution may have been using OPPO

    Apparently the poster who listed the 'solution' had been in contact with LG who had tested it on some of their panels and found the same thing. You mentioned excellent Blacks with BR2049 (no DV) and issues with 2001 DV -- tiny amts of data but at least some overlap with the Bluray.com poster. If the HDR10 looked the same as the DV then it sounds like a different issue anyway

    The problem is just certain LG OLED panel had an issue when DV played. others were fine so it literally was a Tv to TV investigation. it may even be isolated to the 6 series panels.
     
  16. ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    To each his own, but you are reporting an issue, which is not on the disc and is due to your TV set up/limitation. I tried to explain it, and you roll your eyes. Funny stuff.
     
  17. Message #37 of 47 Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    ghostwind

    ghostwind Stunt Coordinator
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    I was not arguing, just expressing my opinion/preferences and offering suggestions which were met with defensiveness. Again, if people want to learn, they can read what's out there - there's a lot. I just posted 1 link! There are too many to post, that was a good explanation I thought. I've done my research to better my display, don't care for UHD, but happy with my display and how it's calibrated.

    That is not a marketing page, but it seems you didn't understand it anyway, so no point unless you just want to argue endlessly. It's you who has made up his mind and refuses to understand. People tend to do this when they spend a lot of money on something (display device, pricey calibration, etc.) and don't want to see any fault with it.

    I like how you choose parts from that article, and then draw incorrect conclusions to post here. The section "LG TV HDR SETUP" in the article shows exactly how limited it is, to quote: "As an example of the extremely limited HDR calibration offered by TV manufacturers for UHD/HDR/WCG, here is LG's documentation for UHD Alliance 'Greyscale Tracking'. As can be seen this guide has no 'colour' calibration component at all - it is just setting the greyscale (as the document title states), and setting the white point to D65."

    The most you can do on my (or ANY WRGB OLED) to calibrate HDR/DV is a 2pt WB as I said. If you do a 20pt, to get a nice CalMAN graph that pricey calibrators love to give customers, you will have an accurate grayscale, but at the expense of colors. This has been documented all over the place. If you move settings from their defaults - I've explained that one too. It goes on and on.

    From the rest of your post, I can see you don't fully understand the concepts (though you strongly argue them), which is why that was a good starter article to read. Prior to 2008, most studios were using a gamma of 2.2. Since then they use 2.4. You know right away if you have it on the wrong setting. Anyway, you are trying to find small things - the main point is that everyone videophile can get a really good 1080p SDR set up/calibration, while no videophile can get a good 4K UHD set up/calibration, despite what calibrators selling their services will say (not all, as I know a few of the top that don't do more than what I said - 2pt WB), and despite what display manufacturers would like you to think.

    When you also say something like, "3D LUT products are rarely required for most quality modern displays for rec 709", it also shows to me a lack of understanding. How can you even back something like that up? You can't, hence the rolling emoticon. Just stating opinions is not enough. Here's one site that shows you the differences you can get with various combinations - if you want the best, you get a 3D LUT. That's why LG has a mode to auto calibrate its internal 3D LUT, though it's broken due to CalMAN software bugs. But the idea is to get the best colors possible, you need a 3D LUT. Do you "need" one? No. You don't "need" anything. But this is a forum I thought for videophiles.

    https://displaycalibrations.com/cube_comparisons.html
     
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  18. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Ghostwind

    No offense but do you realize how condescending your posts sound? That may be part of the issue.
     
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  19. Message #39 of 47 Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    ghostwind

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    Perhaps, but it's not intended that way. It's Internet forums...tone is hard to judge. It's just something I'm passionate about, and was actually trying to help with the LG issue, only to get rolled eyes, etc. I don't think that's the issue though TBH. If you want to attack my points, and say that they are "flat out wrong", you need to come with some solid points of your own, not some rolling face.. Dave seems to be just having fun with it (unfortunately). And I find that more condescending and insulting.
     
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  20. Message #40 of 47 Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    PMF

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    Just the simple fact that I, alone, have yet to possess my own LG OLED has certainly made me more sensitive; and socially so.;)
     
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