Have your friends heard of DVD-A/SACD? (1 Viewer)

[Marc Colella]

Only 3 people I know have heard of SACD, and only because I purchased a player and told them about it. I don't know a single person that owns a SACD capable player.

4 people I know have heard about DVD-A, and only 2 people I know own a DVD-A player, but are only using it for DVD movies and concerts.

Bottom Line: The best case scenario for DVD-A and SACD is that they will relagated to a niche market.

To the vast majority of people, CD is perfect. It's convenient enough, and gives the best sound possible.

People don't want/need better sound. They're happy with listening to their CDs on crappy sound systems and usually play music as background noise while they're doing something else.

If people don't care about sacrificing sound quality with MP3s, then why would "better than CD sound" matter?

The music format of the future is MP3.

Computers and the internet are big, and the advantages of MP3 over CD is much greater than the advantages that DVD-A/SACD has over CD.
Portable MP3 players are continuing to make the format even more popular. Consumers are starting to demand smaller portable devices that will hold ALOT of music and offer a longer battery.

I have a SACD player and like the sound quality. Even with my audiophile tastes, I admit that I'm extremely happy listening to my iPOD on my commute to work and wouldn't even consider purchasing a portable SACD player.
To me, MP3 sound quality is damn close to CD (when done right) and I love having 600-1000 songs at my disposal and getting 10 hours of play before having to recharge.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Bottom Line: The best case scenario for DVD-A and SACD is that they will relagated to a niche market.

They've already achieved that much!

I think the best-case scenario might actually be a "stealth" compaign, will all-hybrid media and el cheapo universal players becoming the norm. I think we're only a year or two away from realizing both.

Worst-case scenario? If the studios start mastering DVD-A and SACD in the same piss-poor manner that they're currently mastering CDs. We are at the all-time nadir of CD mastering IMO, at least for pop/rock recordings.

A well-mastered CD is still very much welcome in my system. I can put on the DCC gold disc of Joni Mitchell's "BLUE" right after listening to a wonderful recording on SACD, and not suffer the same huge step backwards, the same giant letdown I routinely experience with nearly every CD from the big studios.

But if the mastering sins of this current generation of engineers is brought to bear on SACD titles... well, it'll just be high-definition crap. Right now, one of the best arguments in favor of going SACD is that they don't suffer from the over-compression and maximization of their red book counterparts. Unfortunately, I'm told that this may only be because they don't currently have the tools to do to DSD what they routinely do to PCM ("do", as in "bend over, and let me plook the good sonics right outta ya").

 

[Marc Colella]

They've already achieved that much!

I don't consider hi-rez to be a niche market yet, because that would indicate it's going to stay around a while. IMO, both formats could still die off within the next couple years.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

DVD offers greater convenience, durability and special features over its mainstream replacement -- VHS. This is more like when CD replaced vinyl and cassettes as the mainstream audio format.

While I agree that it is a bit different this time on the convenience side, I think many will enjoy the surround experience and the added clarity on the music once educated or exposed to it.

Rich makes some good points about affordability...$200 is a fairly low entry point and this will only go lower. If Sony starts issuing all new discs in hybrid and continues to sign up "superstar" albums like Dark Side, I think it is very possible we could get much wider acceptance. DSD chip prices are already falling so maybe we will see better and cheaper universal machines.

I agree with all of you that awareness is low but extrapolating out from there that mainstream acceptance will never occur or either one will die in a couple of years is far too pessimistic IMHO.

Let's see where we are by the end of this year.

 

[John-Miles]

Lee there is a MASSIVE difference between DVD-V and SACD or DVD-A for that matter.

Perhaps its just me but I am of the opinion that a half blind goat on crack can see an improvement between VHS and DVD, but it definitely takes someoen paying attention to hear the difference between SACD and CD especially if it is just casual listening.

Dont get me wrong I would be very happy if everythign came out on DVD-A or SACD, but I really dont see the parallels you are tlakign about.

 

[Tyler DJW]

a half blind goat on crack

Newfies have such a great way with words.



I guess I'm the odd man out here, but I actuall know 3 other people into high-rez music. Of course I'm the only one into DVDA. Sadly I think more people are into MP3 than High-rez audio. That's hardly speculation. Hopefully with Hybrids and Universal Players people will start getting into it without even making a conscious effort. That's the only way I really see either format making it into the mainstream.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Perhaps its just me but I am of the opinion that a half blind goat on crack can see an improvement between VHS and DVD

The goat's drug dealer had to first show him what the DVD looked like...

Why did this happen?

Because a good marketing campaign by studios and significant grass roots efforts and some big movie titles got into the public psyche and reports from early adopters were very positive. We may question the quality of the studio marketing campaign, but the other elements seem to be in place.

 

[John-Miles]

Well the problem is Lee that neither SACD nor DVD-A are doing any real marketing, and like i said there is no wow difference. I have had friends over to listen to my system, which i believe is far better than anyhting your average consumer is going to have ie htib crowd, and most of them did not find the difference anywhere near as pronounced as dvd vs VHS, and they certainly do not want to spend more for it.

and so you know im using

Yamaha S2300
Yamaha RX-V1300
PSB Alpha LR's for fronts and surrounds CLR for the center and a subzero subwoofer

acoustic research interconnects, and monster speaker wire.

 

[Carl Johnson]

I'm sure they haven't. I'm the only person that I know with a respectable home theater setup and while I've heard of DVD-A and SACD I don't know the difference and I've listened to neither. I was the first on the block to own a DVD player because it came with a certain coolness factor but I'm not feeling that from these new audio formats. There will have to be quite an improvement in sound quality for me make the upgrade.

 

[Marc Colella]

Why did this happen?

Because a good marketing campaign by studios and significant grass roots efforts and some big movie titles got into the public psyche and reports from early adopters were very positive.

A marketing campaign can only do so much for a product. The return on investment for DVD-A/SACD is very low for the average consumer. They won't hear the difference.

The difference in picture quality between VHS to DVD-V was HUGE, and the value added was obvious (ie. durability, supplements, chapters, subtitles and sound).

The difference in sound quality between CD to SACD/DVD-A is small or non-existent to most people, and offers no other extra value (perhaps multichannel).

Hi-Rez is "been there, done that".

With the internet, satellite TV, HDTV, computer and console games and DVD-video, it's obvious we're in the age of video.

The Buggles said it best: "Video Killed the Radio Star".

 

[Richard Travale]

I have a a couple of friends who are huge Orgazmo fans. so whenever I mention DVD-A they always talk about the DV-DA in the movie.

Double Vaginal-Double Anal. Very disturbing scene in the movie when the very aged porn star talks about how she is the only one in town that will do this and that is how she is still in the business
*shudder*

I do actually have a few friends that are somewhat tech savvy and are completely in the loop as far as SACD, DVD-A and even HD-DVD.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think the adoption of hi-rez may be closer than you think to the adoption of DVD for the following reasons:

1. Home Theater is the hottest consumer electronics trend right now as many serious fans have added surround speakers to ge the most out of their DVD players. As such the platform is in place for surround sound music.

2. Surround sound, while not always done well, is a very different and cool experience that is night and day different from two channel redbook listening (although I still maintain that really fine two channel sounds like multi-channel).

3. Currently low-priced hardware and software exist for the new formats. Best Buy has many SACDs at the $13-15 dollar price point.

4. Anniversary and other type releases of superstar titles like Dark Side of The Moon will draw an ever wider audience into hirez.

5. Sony may up the stakes (when enough production capacity goes online) by producing all new releases in hybrid form only.

6. There have been recent positive mainstream press articles on hi-rez, such as the recent article in New York times.

7. An increasing number of universal player options exist which may take the risk of buying into the wrong format away.

So, yeah I think it could happen.

In an ideal world, I would like to see the following occur:

1. Next Gulf War to end quickly so the economy can recover and people return to retail stores.

2. More superstar titles like The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and others to generate more buzz.

3. More print advertising/education on the advantages in more mainstream periodicals.

4. Sony goes to all, or mostly all, new releases in hybrid.

5. In a totally perfect world, industry combines forces and promotes one single hirez format.

A lot of things have started in the high end community or by early adopters and become mainstream.

Even if there is no mass adoption, I don't see either format going away anytime soon, although Warner could be pivotal due to its parent company's difficult financial situation.

 

[Evan S]

I think Rich Malloy's post #11 in this thread was not only one of the most thought provoking posts I've read in a long time on this board, but it may be one of the best posts I've read in two years as a HTF member.

I think he totally hits the nail on the head with this one. I agree with him 100% As much as I love SACD and Lee Scoggins unbridled enthusiasm for the format, it's the MUSIC that matters. We all know that the music industry is not putting out really good stuff right now. In 10 years, what are "classic" rock stations going to play??? There hasn't been a classic album released in my opinion since "Nevermind" and "Ten" That's almost 13 years of average crap. Sure, there are standouts every year, but do they stand the test of time?

People are not going to pay big money to hear the increased clarity and resolution the high audio formats are going to bring, because they don't care about the content being released.

Comparing SACD to DVD is trivial and an apples to oranges comparison because everyone has a TV, and everyone wants the convienience of watching a movie at home rather than go to the theater. One purchase, and you are done with it. You don't need 5 speakers, you don't need quality amplification...you just need a TV, and everyone has one of those. DVD took off partially because of increased picture quality, but mostly because of convienience...no more rewinding, instant pausing and incredible fast forwarding and rewinding capabilities. As anyone why they got into DVD and you will get two answers. 1) they have the ability to go right to a scene and no rewinding and 2) Blockbuster no longer stocks many of the new releases in VHS or the selection is supremely limited.

Listen, I love driving my car...but I'm not going to turbocharge my engine or use fuel injector cleaners to get that added 5% performance increase because it's just not that important to me. Same for SACD with the average consumer. He just wants to have something for background material while he/she cleans the house. CD's took off because of convienience also...no more tapes melting in your car, no more tape heads grabbing your favorite tapes and spitting them out. Tape had a huge advantage on CD in that you could record to it, yet CD still clobbered it. I doubt that was because of "perfect sound forever" but that the CD's were easier to store, you only needed to buy one new piece of hardware and they promised durability over the long haul.

It's not that the average consumer doesn't "get it", it's that he/she simply doesn't care. I don't think that will ever change enough to make SACD/DVD-A more than a niche product. Sorry Lee :frowning:

 

[Lee Scoggins]

It's not that the average consumer doesn't "get it", it's that he/she simply doesn't care.

A lot of new formats start in a stage where consumers don't care until they fully understand the advantages.

Evan, you could be right or I could just be early.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Even with a mediocre sound system, hirez of either format offers a lot more than 5% improvement - in my mind 50% and far higher for audiophile systems.

And I'll wager that on a medicre system, 99% of people would never be able to tell the CD layer from the stereo high-res layer in a level-matched blind test.

Heck, I've seen one or two audiophiles admit they can't tell the layers apart on the Stones release. Gathered, the original tapes aren't so hot so that may not be the best example...

 

[Marc Colella]

I agree with Michael, 99% of the people can't hear the difference between CD and Hi-rez.

Most people can't hear the difference between CD and 128kbps MP3s, and of the very few that can hear the difference - most of them don't care.

 

[Justin Lane]

Evan, I and many others agree with this, but doesn't this favor replacement of older classical titles like Pink Floyd in hirez?

I agree with this, but what happens when most of the big classic titles are released? The music industry is only putting off dealing with the fact that their acts these days are mostly garbage. The Beatles, Stones and Floyd will sell now on their first release to Hi-rez, but how will they help to sustain the industry or the new formats for the long run?

The only answer is for the music industry to actually develop talent. Case in point is Mariah, the number one selling female artist of all time. If her entire catalog was released in Hi-res I don't see anyone breaking down the doors to buy her music again, or any of the other cookie cutter pop out there on the maket. It is a sad state of affairs.

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

music industry is only putting off dealing with the fact that their acts these days are mostly garbage.

I agree but these things seem to move in cycles in my mind. I think things will improve. I believe my idea for music venture capitalists is a good solution but that's another topic.

 

[John-Miles]

Michael is right but i think there needs to be some clarification. 99% of people cant hear the difference between cd and hi-res, but the reason they cannot hear the difference is because they are not familiar enough with the music to do so. most people do not do ANY critical listening, and as a result they cannot pick out the subtle improvements in hi-res.

As far as music today being crap, well i personally dont believe that is true, the really popular music is crap. there are numerous bands out there now that are putting out really good music, and here are just a few examples off the top of my head. Matthew Good, Our Lady Peace, U2, Metallica, Godsmack, Tea Party, Red Hot Chili Peppers,Oasis, David Usher, Lenny Kravitz.

can you really say there is no good music comming out? I dont think so, but you can say that popular music is not where the good music is.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Are you kidding me? It is night and day on any good transfer.

Not if the person is listening on a cheap boombox, portable player with cheap headphones or a stock car audio system. The mainstream music listener has embraced MP3, a format that is inferior in sound quality to the compact disc. Do you think these people care about improved audio quality without some other benefit?