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have 1080p SDR projector. should i madvr tonemap all hdr->sdr or stick to 1080p blu-ray disc and call it a day? (1 Viewer)

ManW_TheUncool

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i can't miss what aint there, right? colors maybe, but it can't get any brighter than self emissive, what's the point right?

it will never be true black and it will never go over 500nits nor have true blacks like self emissive.

to me, it's like you are paying a premium for 4k hdr projector... then getting overblown/exaggerated details from 4k discs. and then you gotta spend $5k to 8k to buy a tonemapping to reduce it down or use madvr to set the 4k hdr projector to SDR for proper tonemapping. i mean c'mon right? it's truly scammy.

i'm fine where i am.

Of course, we all must choose our compromises that best suit us. Calling it "truly scammy" seems a bit extreme and unnecessary though.

What's the point? Well, some of us do want the large screen immersion that you simply won't get w/ self emissives anytime soon... unless you're a loner or something and choose to sit extremely close to your direct-view now, which involves its own set of compromises (including being possibly bad for your eyes in the long run). And some of us also actually find FP to look more like theatrical movies should than direct-views... and honestly, I'm not sure the pursuit of extremely bright HDR really helps that at all -- no theaters actually offer that AFAIK (and no, I wasn't quite that impressed w/ Dolby Cinema here in NYC), so it's not just HT FP.

And if going w/ FP setup anyway, each of us may feel a certain amount of improvement is worth a certain amount of $... and that may also depend on factors relatively unique to each of us (like our age, funds for discretionary spending, other priorities, etc). Life is short afterall...

It's a bit like how people choose the cars they own and drive me thinks. I don't actually drive myself, and honestly, don't see nearly enough point to spend more than say $40K for any vehicle -- at one point, I might've capped that at $20-30K (or even less perhaps), but raised that to include moderately priced SUVs like the upper-end Subaru Outbacks. But I'm not gonna call BMW or Mercedes scammy or anything like that just because some folks who probably shouldn't really try to afford them do get sold some -- well, maybe most of the "sleasepeople" industrywide (as another HTFer calls them) might indeed deserve to be called scammy though, LOL.

You're inevitably gonna be paying for diminishing returns w/ just about everything you might want near enough the best, and everyone has his/her own priorities, angles/degrees/levels of enjoyment/appreciation, ability to afford, etc.

You clearly still want some kind of FP setup for qualities that you can't get from direct-views. You mentioned owning/using an Optoma 25e. That's basically an entry level, 1080p DLP PJ from almost a decade ago -- yes, it was one of the best in that range back then (and I've had its comparably inexpensive BenQ competition myself), but still entry level w/ the usual limitations of such... although maybe those limitations don't matter nearly enough to you... just as somethings wouldn't matter nearly enough to me re: cars (or smartphones, gaming hardware, some pro level cameras and lenses, even PJs that cost over say $5K, etc).

I'd say though upgrading from that old, entry level Optoma, especially laser PJs drop in price, isn't only about the incremental upgrade in PQ. There are other aspects that go into the higher pricing (much like w/ other products), eg. lens system and memory and such features. It's like do you really wanna go back to an old, albeit very reliable, car w/out power steering, cruise control, power windows, power anything, etc? A few luddites might indeed, but probably just a few... and that (very) old reliable won't actually last forever... even though the absolute perfect car will never come and certainly not at a price you can afford (just as the pipedream, absolute perfect PJ won't either).

As they say, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good... but of course, that's not to say you need to go w/ someone else's choices for that "good" involving whatever compromises...

:cheers:

_Man_
 

JediFonger

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immersiveness of projection is unbeatable for sure! that's why i've stuck with projection & also i still like 3D (in spite of everyone else. abandoning it). so i get that point. otherwise, i would have stopped using projectors a long time ago. my other direct view in my basement where my projector lives is a 60" plasma. so there is no disagreement there. bigger is better physically.

i've seen many dolby cinema movies and to my eyes they do not appear all that different than non-Dolby Vision titles. based on what i've read Dolby Vision in Dolby Cinema tops out at 108nits anyways... similar to at home projectors and i hear they are using dual laser christie projectors to achieve that given how much larger the screens are.

as for all those features/comparison. look, i'm all for the latest/greatest, but it actually has to deliver. the primary feature of 4k hdr is the hdr, not the resolution. and for hdr to deliver, you need the nits and if you dont have the nits, then it's worthless. i know not everyone agrees about hdr+nits, but for me, if i watch accurate colors but projector is dim and does not have enough juice to make me blind, then it is not worth it for me. if projector manufactures want to sell me "this will do 4k hdr" then deliver the nits, if you can't then it's a scam. using your car example, those german cars actually delivers on performance, i've driven them, it's worth that money, it's no scam or lie :). if BMW for example goes from 0-60 in a full minute, then yeah, is that not a scam? what else would you call it, right? but they don't they actually deliver. if 4k hdr projectors will give me the nits, i'll stop calling them scams.

but hey to each their own. like you have communicated, everyone has their own criterias and mine just wants some basic needs met, i needs the nits and if it's not there, i dont bother for hdr. i know people might disagree with it and that's ok. that's just the way i am. it's ok to agree to disagree. yes you can say i'm dead wrong, but i'd say the same of others, etc. around & around it goes.

as for nextgen projectors, even if i upgrade, i'll still be looking for 1080p projectors and used. i dont buy new. it's how i get the value/best bang for the buck. if i can get a 4k hdr for around $200, that's my next upgrade. and i wait long enough that will happen. i didn't buy my pioneer 141fd when it came out. in fact, i paid $0 for it, i got it free from local yardsale who wanted their "heavy old tv out of their basement". yep.... that's what i look for :).

like OLED, i've seen them for around $200-500 without burn in yes. i'm not going to spend $1,000 to $5,000 on them.

Of course, we all must choose our compromises that best suit us. Calling it "truly scammy" seems a bit extreme and unnecessary though.

What's the point? Well, some of us do want the large screen immersion that you simply won't get w/ self emissives anytime soon... unless you're a loner or something and choose to sit extremely close to your direct-view now, which involves its own set of compromises (including being possibly bad for your eyes in the long run). And some of us also actually find FP to look more like theatrical movies should than direct-views... and honestly, I'm not sure the pursuit of extremely bright HDR really helps that at all -- no theaters actually offer that AFAIK (and no, I wasn't quite that impressed w/ Dolby Cinema here in NYC), so it's not just HT FP.

And if going w/ FP setup anyway, each of us may feel a certain amount of improvement is worth a certain amount of $... and that may also depend on factors relatively unique to each of us (like our age, funds for discretionary spending, other priorities, etc). Life is short afterall...

It's a bit like how people choose the cars they own and drive me thinks. I don't actually drive myself, and honestly, don't see nearly enough point to spend more than say $40K for any vehicle -- at one point, I might've capped that at $20-30K (or even less perhaps), but raised that to include moderately priced SUVs like the upper-end Subaru Outbacks. But I'm not gonna call BMW or Mercedes scammy or anything like that just because some folks who probably shouldn't really try to afford them do get sold some -- well, maybe most of the "sleasepeople" industrywide (as another HTFer calls them) might indeed deserve to be called scammy though, LOL.

You're inevitably gonna be paying for diminishing returns w/ just about everything you might want near enough the best, and everyone has his/her own priorities, angles/degrees/levels of enjoyment/appreciation, ability to afford, etc.

You clearly still want some kind of FP setup for qualities that you can't get from direct-views. You mentioned owning/using an Optoma 25e. That's basically an entry level, 1080p DLP PJ from almost a decade ago -- yes, it was one of the best in that range back then (and I've had its comparably inexpensive BenQ competition myself), but still entry level w/ the usual limitations of such... although maybe those limitations don't matter nearly enough to you... just as somethings wouldn't matter nearly enough to me re: cars (or smartphones, gaming hardware, some pro level cameras and lenses, even PJs that cost over say $5K, etc).

I'd say though upgrading from that old, entry level Optoma, especially laser PJs drop in price, isn't only about the incremental upgrade in PQ. There are other aspects that go into the higher pricing (much like w/ other products), eg. lens system and memory and such features. It's like do you really wanna go back to an old, albeit very reliable, car w/out power steering, cruise control, power windows, power anything, etc? A few luddites might indeed, but probably just a few... and that (very) old reliable won't actually last forever... even though the absolute perfect car will never come and certainly not at a price you can afford (just as the pipedream, absolute perfect PJ won't either).

As they say, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good... but of course, that's not to say you need to go w/ someone else's choices for that "good" involving whatever compromises...

:cheers:

_Man_
 
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JediFonger

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i had forgotten that i know a couple of online friends who tonemaps 4k discs/sources to their projectors (both SDR & HDR projectors) & have years and years of experiences with madvr+mpv. so i reached out to them and it just confirms what i suspected all along. so i'll not be wasting more time on it, i'll stick to separate discs 4k for 4k displays and 1080p SDR blu-rays for 1080p displays. here are the exchanges for future internet searched that may hit upon this thread or searches:


i asked: just thinking out louder here if any madvr/mpv will ever get hdr files to look as good as SDR or it will always be compromised?

reply:
mpv and madVR are still a work in progress that attempt to give you a general solution to HDR -> SDR. IF properly mastered, I'd think an SDR 1080p BluRay should be better tonemapped than madVR/mpv doing it for you from an HDR 4K BluRay. But then 4K should have more details... so there are always compromises.

i asked: i'm just exploring if madvr can replicate the SDR exactly.

reply:
Not possible. Tonemapping isn't meant to make the output look like an SDR grade, it's meant to make the HDR video look as good as it can on an SDR display. SDR masters are graded separately from HDR in many cases and trying to match them would require tweaking tonemapping for each release and probably in a way that's outside of the tonemappers capabilities alone. If you want something that looks like the SDR grade, your best option is to just buy the SDR version.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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i had forgotten that i know a couple of online friends who tonemaps 4k discs/sources to their projectors (both SDR & HDR projectors) & have years and years of experiences with madvr+mpv. so i reached out to them and it just confirms what i suspected all along. so i'll not be wasting more time on it, i'll stick to separate discs 4k for 4k displays and 1080p SDR blu-rays for 1080p displays. here are the exchanges for future internet searched that may hit upon this thread or searches:


i asked: just thinking out louder here if any madvr/mpv will ever get hdr files to look as good as SDR or it will always be compromised?

reply:


i asked: i'm just exploring if madvr can replicate the SDR exactly.

reply:

Seems like you might somehow be stuck on trying to get the perfect SDR output (just because of some preconceived notions about the limitations of current/foreseeable FP tech) instead of what HDR (or even other features) can still actually offer in an FP setup... just because it won't match what direct-views can do despite the (much) smaller size.

And based on what else you've said, especially about what you're looking to pay for OLED, well, seems like you're just trying really hard to spend extremely little $ on this HT hobby... while you seem like you might be the opposite re: cars (while I don't even drive at all... though I would never call them "scammy" just because I don't (care to) appreciate them), LOL...

Truly, to each his own...

:cheers:


_Man_
 

JediFonger

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guilty as charged! hahaha!

i'm ok with 1080p on projection. hdr on current projectors are too overblown for my taste. if that i ever changes, i'll circle back. until that day 4k hdr is relegated to direct view tech. only for me.

it just seems like everyone is always happy to jump on the latest+greatest without actually looking at what value it offers. for projectors, i'd tak accurate details in SDR with proper light output vs. HDR overblown overprocessed & dimly lit.

i'm closer to the end of my life than the beginning, i'm ok with no longer dumping $ into this hobby ;P.

cheers!


Seems like you might somehow be stuck on trying to get the perfect SDR output (just because of some preconceived notions about the limitations of current/foreseeable FP tech) instead of what HDR (or even other features) can still actually offer in an FP setup... just because it won't match what direct-views can do despite the (much) smaller size.

And based on what else you've said, especially about what you're looking to pay for OLED, well, seems like you're just trying really hard to spend extremely little $ on this HT hobby... while you seem like you might be the opposite re: cars (while I don't even drive at all), LOL...

Truly, to each his own...

:cheers:


_Man_
 

ManW_TheUncool

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guilty as charged! hahaha!

i'm ok with 1080p on projection. hdr on current projectors are too overblown for my taste. if that i ever changes, i'll circle back. until that day 4k hdr is relegated to direct view tech. only for me.

it just seems like everyone is always happy to jump on the latest+greatest without actually looking at what value it offers. for projectors, i'd tak accurate details in SDR with proper light output vs. HDR overblown overprocessed & dimly lit.

I definitely hear you re: people around these parts (aka enthusiasts) jumping on the "latest+greatest" that may be more "overblown" hype than real value.

I (and everyone else) don't like/want to be "taken" or "scammed" either and want good value -- and yes, I do love a good bargain too and am a bargain-hunter in general... and often enough buy used myself for that reason. But "good value" isn't exactly objective, but (usually) quite subjective for the most part...

i'm closer to the end of my life than the beginning, i'm ok with no longer dumping $ into this hobby ;P.

cheers!

Me too, but I've actually become a bit of the opposite w/ that... after spending so long trying to spend less, bargain hunt and now being able to afford some more... though I'll probably never wanna spend enough for what JVC and the higher end competition (nor BMW, Mercedes, et al) wanna charge these days...

When I think about it though, really, even JVC doesn't charge more than what I had to spend (NVM the time+effort) on my kids' music lessons and such year in and year out, LOL... and some of them might not even appreciate those all that much, if ever at all... :lol:

Meanwhile, I continue to have extremely little desire for driving, especially while living here in NYC. Guess I should be glad for that, especially since I do see some who try to hard to afford their BMWs, Mercedes, etc or could easily afford them, but really don't appreciate them as they're probably meant/intended, LOL. I figure why not spend a little bit on this HT hobby, especially if/when I'm not throwing waaay more $$$ on a nice car (including insurance) here, LOL...

_Man_
 

DaveF

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i can't miss what aint there, right? colors maybe, but it can't get any brighter than self emissive, what's the point right?

it will never be true black and it will never go over 500nits nor have true blacks like self emissive.

to me, it's like you are paying a premium for 4k hdr projector... then getting overblown/exaggerated details from 4k discs. and then you gotta spend $5k to 8k to buy a tonemapping to reduce it down or use madvr to set the 4k hdr projector to SDR for proper tonemapping. i mean c'mon right? it's truly scammy.

i'm fine where i am.

I’ve seen current 4K projectors demo’ing a variety of HDR movie scenes. They look spectacular. Far better than my 2016 Sony HD projector. And a 120” screen makes up for the lack of absolute brightness of my 65” TV, for me.

My Sony projector is due to be replaced. I’m ready for UHD HDR. That’s me.

If you’re happy with your setup, definitely don’t do any demo’s with newer displays :)
 

JediFonger

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I’ve seen current 4K projectors demo’ing a variety of HDR movie scenes. They look spectacular. Far better than my 2016 Sony HD projector. And a 120” screen makes up for the lack of absolute brightness of my 65” TV, for me.

My Sony projector is due to be replaced. I’m ready for UHD HDR. That’s me.

If you’re happy with your setup, definitely don’t do any demo’s with newer displays :)

i have demod some in showrooms, i think the jvc nx or nv or somn 5 or 9 i cant remember now it’s the older gen now the newest one that can do 4k120, also the sony xrc somn somns.

actually that reminds me one of my friend was finishing his basement and his optoma i think was p1 it was like the first or one of the first laser arrived early. he let me took it out for a spin maybe a few weeks or so. didnt get super long with it, but based on (admittedly extremely limited times) the experiences havent changed my mind. there wasnt any emvy or lumegen in between just player to projector.

so not 0 experiences but i havent been able to dial into a more natural look for hdr modes.
 

JediFonger

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Sounds like you don't like HDR.

If you're trying to make 4K HDR look like 2K SDR, then that's not for you :)

AU CONTRAIRE MON FRÈRE​


i’ve got 4k hdr dolby vision in my living room, it aint OLED but damn it looks great!

that’s the issue is none of the sdr can look great when 4k discs are tonemapped. when i use sdr it looks appropriate.

hdr just belongs to direct view imho that can really bring out the nits
 

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