Harry Potter #6 Discussion (spoilers)

Discussion in 'After Hours Lounge (Off Topic)' started by Kenneth, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. Kenneth

    Kenneth Supporting Actor

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    Since the other thread has primarily focussed on getting the new Harry Potter book I thought I would risk separate thread to discuss the novel so those still pricing it or discussing different versions don't need to worry about bleed through discussion.

    After completing the 6th book I think JK Rowling has set up a pretty tremendious undertaking for the 7th to wrap things up. The death of

    Dumbledore has now put HP in the lead position for the final conflict with Voldemort

    However, with the introduction of the

    Horcruxes there are now 4 quests leading up to the final confrontation with Voldemort. Five major events in one book seems a little overpowering.

    My preference, since she has hinted at the 8th book, rather than trying to wrap things up in one more try she should split the final confrontation into two volumes. In the 7th book she could

    deal with the question of the horcruxes, which if done right could easily take an entire book. She could also expand on the Malfoy or Snape threads that both changed in book 6

    This would leave book 8 clear to address the final confrontation with Voldemort. As much as I would love to see things wrapped in the next book, I think it could become over 1000 pages if she doesn't shortchange things.

    What does everyone else think?

    Kenneth
     
  2. ZacharyTait

    ZacharyTait Cinematographer

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    Since the word spoilers appears in the thread title, I'm not going to bother putting anything in spoilers, in effect treating this like a Movie Discussion Thread.

    I'm not surprised that it was Professor Dumbledore that died. I had a feeling it would be him from the first time we read about him and his blackened hand. I wouldn't be surprised if J.K. Rowling pulled a Tolkein and had Dumbledore come back in another form for the last book.

    It took me a while to figure out what R.A.B. stoof for, but once I figured that the last name was Black, I remember Sirius's brother Regulius from Order of the Phoenix.

    The stage seems to be set for a relationship between Ron and Hermoine. I was surprised that Harry got together with Ginny.

    I suspect in the final book that Harry will face Snape and Malfoy before the final showdown with Voldemort.

    Once again, the post of Defense against the Dark Arts needs to be filled. That'll be 7 teachers in 7 years. I bet we get an explanation for why the position is cursed in book 7.

    More later.....
     
  3. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    "It took me a while to figure out what R.A.B. stoof for"

    Just finished the book.My guess was also Sirius brother Regulius.

    Has JKR hinted at 8 books instead of 7? It does seem like alot to fit into one book.

    Snape continues to be fav character and it should be fun to see Rickman do some of the stuff in books 4-6.
     
  4. Galen_V

    Galen_V Second Unit

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    Unless you're looking for a more in-depth explanation, I think that question is addressed after Dumbledore shows Harry the memory of Voldemort's job interview. Dumbledore says that ever since he denied Voldemort the Defense Against the Dark Arts position, no teacher has held the job for more than a year.
     
  5. Kenneth

    Kenneth Supporting Actor

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    I did the spoilers to start since even with spoilers in the title you sometimes get a tourist how didn't notice [​IMG] Now I can keep things out in the open.

    I definitely don't see Dumbledore coming back (other than picture interactions that they have used with others) nor do I think he is needed. They have been setting up that it was Harry Potter and only him that could defeat Voldemort. I also agree they needed to take Dumbledore out of the equation (besides it makes for emotional fiction [​IMG] )

    Rowling had hinted at an 8th book so people could get something after HP's climactic battle with Voldemort. However, with her introduction of the Horcruxes and the betrayal of Snape it just seems like a lot of stuff to cram into a satisfying 7th.

    The 7 books was somewhat arbitrary since it was tied to the 7 years a student spends at Hogwarts. With Harry dropping out to quest for the Horcruxes and Voldemort I think I can cut JKR some slack and allow her another book (I'm sure her publishers agree with me [​IMG])

    Kenneth
     
  6. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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    I don't believe that Snape is truly evil. He was described as possessed of the same emotions when killing Dumbledore as Harry felt when force-feeding Dumbledore the drink. It would not seem altogether implausible for Dumbledore to plan for his own death; as he said in OOTP:When I finished the novel, that's exactly how I felt. Even if Harry goes back to Hogwarts next book, without Dumbledore, it's going to be a darker and lonelier place. The safety net is gone, and alot of the escapism with it. Having sat with the idea for a while now, I can appeciate why it was done, even it's necessity. Doesn't mean I like it.
     
  7. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    "I don't believe that Snape is truly evil"

    Me neither and Dumbledores pleading may have been for Snape to do something he didnt want...to kill him.

    I think Dumbledore was a sacrifice and Snape is working according to a plan. He will be a hero in this story when it ends.

    We'll see.
     
  8. Galen_V

    Galen_V Second Unit

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    Another thing to remember is that if Snape doesn't kill Dumbledore there, he himself will die because of the Unbreakable Vow he swore to Narcissa. If Snape is indeed good, and seeing as there were four and a half Death Eaters waiting around to finish Dumbledore off in case he didn't pull through, he really had no choice at that point but to cut his loses and kill him. Similarly, his statement during his retreat that Voldemort wants Potter alive could have been a way to keep the Death Eaters from killing Harry, who he knows firsthand is the Order's only hope to prevail.

    On the other hand, Snape could just be a really, really evil bsatard.
     
  9. Kenneth

    Kenneth Supporting Actor

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    The holes I see with Snape "pretending" are that it requires assumptions on his part I find unlikely. The books have played up the fact that Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard (other than Voldemort). To sacrifice him requires a belief in the prophecy (which only Harry and Dumbledore know the details of) or a belief that the death of Dumbledore will enable a more powerful wizard to be able to take out Voldemort(it is highly unlikely that Snape views either himself or Harry Potter as this person).

    Although it is possible the activities with Snape are some kind of elaborate ploy, it will require some extremely careful explaining to make this ploy make sense.

    Kenneth
     
  10. Ray Chuang

    Ray Chuang Screenwriter

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    I personally believe that Snape is NOT as evil as reading the novel implies on first reading, for the following reasons:

    1. Snape got suckered into a Unbreakable Vow, which means a truly no-win situation.

    2. Dumbledore when we first read about him in Half-Blood Prince looks like his health has declined quite a bit since Order of the Phoenix. That does explain why Dumbledore imparted as much knowledge of Voldemort to Harry Potter as fast as possible, and why I think that Dumbledore may have actually worked out a plan with Snape that if worst comes to worst, Dumbledore will be sacrificed to ensure Snape continues to operate safely as a spy inside the Death Eaters on behalf of the Order of the Phoenix. We're all forgetting that Snape fears Voldemort far more than Harry Potter, and I believe that Snape also owes his life to James Potter, too. Crazy idea? Not when you note that Snape was a bit surprised the Unbreakable Vow included him and note that it was Snape that ended Dumbledore's life, not Draco Malfoy (who could have killed Dumbledore immediately in that confrontation at the Hogwarts tower but somehow didn't) so we can keep up appearances that Snape has been faithful to Voldemort but in fact may have just triggered off a series of events that will lead to Voldemort's downfall.
     
  11. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    And dont forget Dumbledores injury which seems to really take a toll. And he kept implying to Harry that he was more important than himself.

    "Snape got suckered into a Unbreakable Vow, which means a truly no-win situation"

    Exactly.
     
  12. Cory S.

    Cory S. Supporting Actor

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    First and foremost, it's the best in the series by for in my opinion. I was more depressed at what Harry HAD to do in terms of his relationship with Ginny than Dumbledore's death, the state of Hogwarts, and Dumbledore's funeral. Given everything Harry has gone through in this story, it's only right that he has some happiness and he found it. As JK says in the book, Harry was the happiest he's ever been in a long while when he was with Ginny those few short weeks.

    But, I understand why he did it and why it had to be done. And I think Ginny understands it as well. Personally, if Harry came make it through his quest that he MUST do now, I would hope that his reward, in a while, is to regain that happiness that he had with Ginny, but for the long run. It only seems right. The Harry and Ginny story was the most delightful part of the novel for me.

    As for Snape, I still believe that Snape in on the side of good. But even if he is, I don't think that matters to Harry. They will cross paths and I don't think Harry will be very forgiving.

    But the best thing about this book is the final coda at the end. At the end of it all, it comes back to the trio that started this series. Ron and Hermione have in some ways taken a backseat in the last two books while they've developed their relationship. But as this book ends, JK made it a point that Harry ends the book standing with Ron and Hermione. It goes back to the adventure and the closeness that those three shared in the first 2 and 3 books.

    The Trio will stand together throughout the entirety of Book 7 and it's going to be great.

    I will say this about JK: She's very cruel to do a book this good and an ending this emotional and not have the final book within our grasp. At the end of this book, you want to continue on. It's just a cruel, cruel joke to have to wait 2 years before we get to the finale.
     
  13. Mary M S

    Mary M S Screenwriter

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    I love escaping into Hogwarts, when a new book arrives its as if, - like Harry I’ve just been released from my miserable existence at the Dursley’s to return to magic.

    I’m guessing that Snape is a deeply placed double agent. I think JK Rawlings has built too much into the mythology of Dumbledore’s legendary foresight and wisdom to allow his “unshakable” trust in the Professor to have been wrongly placed. It would be a rather ignoble end to this “greatest of Wizards” if a lapse of his judgement would prove to be truly the instrument of his death while the war with “he-who-must-not-be-named” is rolling towards climax. I think Dumbledores’ death will prove to have been one possible contingency he had planned for if events took a particular path, included in his estimates towards achieving the greater good; the ultimate defeat of Voldermort. He is too fulcrum-balanced and endowed of power in his character to have not planned for his own ultimate sacrifice.

    JK Rawlings does have a more believably established route for the Late Great Headmaster to return (more so than Gandulfs the Grey, vaguely explained reincarnated transmutation to White) to have the Headmaster able to play a role via his portrait during future critical junctures. Perhaps again to strengthen Potter when all looks grimmest.

    I hope JKR does take at least two more novels to wrap it up. I will miss the series terribly when concluded. I think she will be ready for a many years’ hiatus to raise her children, and to commit herself to the years, which are busiest for a family. I have great hopes however that as similar (but more successfully than) the Star Wars saga, we will 15 yrs past the last of this series see (not a prequeul) but rather a natural sequence following for a second series.

    Harry Potter following in the footsteps of his greatest mentor shepherding a new generation of wizards and witches through their adventures, taking the reigns at Hogwarts to oversee the next battle between the darker arts and the lighter side of the magical world. There are plenty of imaginative future struggles, which could cont. in further generations. As Dumbedore stated, Evil can never be totally eradicated, you may only beat it back.

    My favorite moment was Dumbledor’s insistence that Harry see the great importance of the fact that Voldermort had Self propagated his own doom. It was one of those kernals of reality moments which shine in literature when the Old Wizard in his wisdom felt it imperative that Harry understand the freedom and comfort in the fact of “choice”.

    Good read.
     
  14. Dome Vongvises

    Dome Vongvises Lead Actor

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    I thought Ginny and Harry would've been good together. [​IMG]
     
  15. Galen_V

    Galen_V Second Unit

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    The one thing that really bothered the heck out of me during the ending was the Order's behavior during their confrontation with the Death Eaters. When a group of enemy forces comes wands a-blazing into a school full of sleeping children, and proceeds to fire torture and killing curses indiscriminately at anything that moves, wouldn't there be a point where one is forced to finally respond in kind? If the wizarding world is truly at war, and Dumbledore makes a point of having aurors on hand to defend the castle, then it doesn't make sense to me that they would continue to try and capture the Death Eaters when they are literally out to murder the whole lot of them. While the Order's inhibitions against these tactics are understandable, it would appear as if they were presented with extraordinary circumstances in which such actions could be justified. I guess this goes back to the whole theme of deciding between what is easy and what is right, but in this particular scenario I think I would side with a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach.

    Aside from that brief rant, I have a general plot question-are we to assume that the potion in the bowl in the cave regenerates itself after it has been emptied, or is it just a plot hole that R.A.B. drinks the stuff to get the locket, and there just happens to be a full tub of it waiting for Dumbledore to chug down years later?
     
  16. Steve Tannehill

    Steve Tannehill Ambassador

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    Great book. It may supplant Azkaban as my favorite in the series.

    To echo some thoughts already written here: I think Snape is indeed a deep-cover double-agent, and Dumbledore was prepared to be sacrificed so that Harry--the Chosen One--would be able to complete his quest. Snape had no choice but to kill Dumbledore, or be killed himself. Dumbledore was not begging for his life, but for Snape to keep to the plan.

    I also think it is not mere chance that Harry got Snape's potions book. Dumbledore, Snape, and even McGonagall must have conspired to get it into the hands of Harry so that he would be exposed to magic of a higher order, and to get on the good side of the instructor who had the last memory that Dumbledore needed to review.

    Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince...Harry thinks of Snape as his bitterest enemy when he might be Harry's greatest ally.

    Or, Snape could just be a double-crossing bastard. We won't know for another 2-3 years, will we?

    - Steve
     
  17. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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    I would assume so. It probably resets itself each time the cave wall is opened.
     
  18. ZacharyTait

    ZacharyTait Cinematographer

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    I retract my statement that Harry will fight Snape on the way to killing Voldemort in book 7. Now I think Snape will sacrifice himself, albeit reluctantly, to enable Harry to face off against Voldemort.

    I was surprised that Fleur (a.k.a. Phlegm [​IMG]) stayed with Bill after he was attacked. I'm glad she wasn't shallow as her looks would suggest.
     
  19. Galen_V

    Galen_V Second Unit

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    I understand with what you're saying, but it just seems to me that when you have something like a child-craving werewolf running around a castle full of prey, all bets are off. Even in other hero narratives like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, the hero's accept the notion that they must kill/be killed if the ensuing death allows them to save more lives in the future. In this instance, however, the non-killing of the Death Eaters inside the castle resulted in the near-deaths of both Harry and Hagrid on the Hogwarts Grounds; at some point, even the most noble of ideologies permit certain actions if the end result is to save lives.
     
  20. Dome Vongvises

    Dome Vongvises Lead Actor

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    I thought one of the Death Eaters did get killed?
     

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