Halloween (franchise discussion) (1 Viewer)

[TravisR]

I'm not a moderator but I think a good rule that everyone follow is that any specific discussion about Halloween Kills go over in that thread. That way, this thread doesn't get bogged down with SPOILER boxes.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Actually, Tarantino was briefly involved in the story phase of H6. Forget if any of his contributions made it into the story though

So, as I understand it he wrote and turned in a script for a Halloween 6 picture. His idea for the picture was that Michael and the man in black get in a car and go on a road trip down Route 66 slaughtering people as they travel. This script would get rejected, I think potentially because they felt it would cost too much to shoot and departed too much from previous films.

Supposedly Tarantino liked the script and ended up fiddling with it until it eventually turned into Natural Born Killers.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I think another reason he doesn't like HII is because he's a grumpy old man.

Well, the only issue with that is he did not like it way back in 1979 either. So, as a young man he did not like it. So, perhaps just grumpy but I think his points on it are correct.

Here's an odd aside I will throw in here. We all know at this point what the intention of Halloween III was, to release a new film every Halloween with a different story set at the holiday. Seems a fantastic if very ambitious idea but far better than trying to find ways to keep Michael in his mask on a killing spree forever.

We know this did not happen and mainly because fans so completely rejected Halloween III.

At one point Robert Downey Jr. was asked what he wanted to do after he was finished playing Iron Man and his answer was to make a series of different films set on Halloween, releasing them year after year at the holiday. The interviewer seemed not to know that this had once been Carpenter's idea and just said that sounded like a wonderful idea. I don't know if Robert was bullshitting, he likes to do this, or was serious. The interviewer took him seriously but I don't think Robert ever mentioned this again, leading me to believe he was screwing with the guy.

 

[Malcolm R]

Here's an odd aside I will throw in here. We all know at this point what the intention of Halloween III was, to release a new film every Halloween with a different story set at the holiday. Seems a fantastic if very ambitious idea but far better than trying to find ways to keep Michael in his mask on a killing spree forever.

We know this did not happen and mainly because fans so completely rejected Halloween III.

I've read that this was the original concept for Friday the 13th, too. That they'd release an anthology of scary films regularly under the F13 banner, but they wouldn't necessarily be sequels or involve Jason/Crystal Lake. The date doesn't actually have much to do with the Jason films, it was just going to be a "scary" brand.

But the studio wanted them to keep the Jason character. They kinda sorta tried to get back to this idea with F13 Part V: A New Beginning, but were scared by the dip in the box office for that film so returned to more straight sequels again with Jason Lives (though the franchise's box office never really recovered to prior heights).

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I've read that this was the original concept for Friday the 13th, too. That they'd release an anthology of scary films regularly under the F13 banner, but they wouldn't necessarily be sequels or involve Jason/Crystal Lake. The date doesn't actually have much to do with the Jason films, it was just going to be a "scary" brand.

But the studio wanted them to keep the Jason character. They kinda sorta tried to get back to this idea with F13 Part V: A New Beginning, but were scared by the dip in the box office for that film so returned to more straight sequels again with Jason Lives (though the franchise's box office never really recovered to prior heights).

I did not know this as I saw the first couple Friday the 13th pictures in cinemas, though my friend that I saw them with claims I went to more than that, and did not really follow the series. Back when these pictures were coming out I was not a fan, I actually enjoy them more now I think based mainly on nostalgia.

I think the big problem is this with these pictures, the first films in these series did not set out with the intention of keeping the killer slaughtering people film after film so in order to do that you have to keep coming up with a reason for the killer to come back. So, you have to retrofit the concept so you have this killer that never dies. This never works in terms of story.

I guess if they set out right from the first film to create a character that never dies then you could more easily develop that concept into additional films.

Problem is that was not the intent and so now your sequels go against the original intent. In Friday the 13th Jason is not even in the film and is not the killer. In fact in the first film the reason for the killings is Jason was a victim that is dead.

So, the continuation of the series is ridiculous right from the jump. However, they retrofit the whole thing to begin a new series of pictures where Jason is alive and the killer. The original Friday the 13th does not even fit with the rest of the films. I recall talking to someone that had not seen the films and began by watching the first one and they were stunned there was no Jason in a hockey mask chasing people around and chopping them up. I think the hockey mask, iconic as it is, does not show up until the third picture...which I recall was thought of as a joke when it came out.

Hilariously, I just watched the third Friday the 13th and had a blast watching it. It's certainly not a great film and really not even a good one but it was fun for me to watch all these years later.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I think an interesting question for this discussion is what is it that attracts you to the Halloween franchise?

For me it was that I am just a massive John Carpenter fan and his picture that kicked this series off was just a fantastic film. The first three films were just a blast for me way back when they came out. The fourth was an epic disappointment and I stopped going to them. I've never seen 5, watched 6 just a couple years ago and really enjoyed it, and have not seen the Zombie remakes. I did go to a theater to see H20 and that was my only viewing of it when it came out. I did not like it at the time and I can't recall anything about it at this point. I did see Halloween (2018) and found it a decent if over baked stab at a sequel. I really enjoyed the wacky Halloween 6 Producer's Cut more than the 2018 film. I think just because of how weird it was and how nuts they got creating this bizarre mythology for Michael Myers. Plus I mean Donald Pleasance is in it and really to me the most interesting character in the entire series is Loomis.

Were I writing sequels to the first picture I would have made Loomis my central character...not Michael and not Laurie. Great stories could have been built around Dr. Loomis. However, probably not what people wanted as they made Myers the focus, which I personally think was a huge mistake in terms of making decent follow-ups. He is just not an interesting character. He is a silent knife wielding killer and that's all he delivers in the pictures so he is Jaws on land. I find Myers boring as all hell as a character as his entire deal is stalk, stalk, stalk, stab, stab, stab and never say a word. There just is nowhere to go with that. The music stingers are all of his personality.

So, I really am curious what draws people to the franchise? Is it Michael? Laurie? Is it just that it is a holiday themed film? This thing just keeps going but they have never made a picture anywhere near as good as the first one, I think, so what keeps you coming back?

 

[Tommy R]

As a franchise I don’t know if I’m particularly “drawn” to it as a whole, at least in regards to its present state. Mostly because of how much of a mess it is with sequels ignoring other sequels and such. The quality of the sequels are very low as well. Both Friday and Nightmare are MUCH more consistent sequels and make for better “franchises”.

1981’s 2 is the only great one, and though I’ve only just seen it for the first time this month, I appreciate 3 a lot. 4, 5 and H20 are guilty pleasures born of nostalgia. Not objectively “good” (though I liked how H20 ended, if only that was the absolute end of the series). I went out to the theaters with hopeful enthusiasm when the 2018 film came out, but was extremely underwhelmed. I’m in NO rush to see Kills.

What I DO think draws me in if anything, is the concept of a Halloween themed horror movie. I’ve always loved the fall, I loved the Halloween holiday, carving pumpkins, dressing up in a costume and going trick-or-treating as a kid.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

What I DO think draws me in if anything, is the concept of a Halloween themed horror movie.

I've always suspected that the reason these films remain popular is just that they are a holiday themed picture. People will tolerate a lot of bad films because they are a "holiday" film and they can make it an event to watch them at that time of year. Most Christmas movies are pretty lousy but people watch them every year because...well...holiday theme.

 

[TravisR]

I think an interesting question for this discussion is what is it that attracts you to the Halloween franchise?

I saw the first two movies on TV when I was young so I think that just set the template for what I like in terms of a horror movie. It's certainly to blame for me loving slasher movies. As I grew up, I fell in love with all of John Carpenter's work (I even like Village Of The Damned!) so that's definitely what I feel is the biggest draw for me to the Halloween series.


And if we're comparing the big 3 slasher franchises, I like Friday The 13th more overall because there's a greater number of movies from the series that I like but there's no doubt that the original Halloween is vastly better than any other Halloween, F13, or A Nightmare On Elm Street movie. When it comes to Elm Street, about half of the series are just lousy and while Halloween hasn't always been good, I like more than half of the movies in the series.

 

[Michael Elliott]

The main appeal is the original Halloween is so great. Plus I love the various masks from the series and actually started collecting them again yesterday.

Like Travis, I actually prefer Jason and F13 but Myers would definitely be number 2.

 

[Emcee]

As much as I'd hate to have missed Halloween 4 and Halloween H20 in the series, it is interesting to wonder where the franchise could have gone had the fans sucked it up and said goodbye to Myers.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Plus I love the various masks from the series and actually started collecting them again yesterday.

Have you seen this video, Michael?

 

[Michael Elliott]

Thanks for the video. I hadn't seen that before.

Something I've noticed with the TOTS mask is that many of them look downright horrid. I started collecting them back when HALLOWEEN 2018 came out and I ordered parts 1,2 and 4 from Amazon. All of them got returned because of how bad they looked. They were nothing like the movies.

Apparently you have to get lucky and hope the mask you're buying is one of the first out of the production mold. It seems man people pay hundreds of dollars to have them rehauled. I did buy parts 4 and 6 over the weekend. I'm on the lookout for the first two but it seems I'm going to have to go the custom route to get really good quality ones. I'm not sure why these first two masks are so hard to get. I also bought TOTS THE WOLFMAN mask and it's brilliant. So are their new Scooby Doo villains masks.

 

[TravisR]

As much as I'd hate to have missed Halloween 4 and Halloween H20 in the series, it is interesting to wonder where the franchise could have gone had the fans sucked it up and said goodbye to Myers.

Maybe there could even have been a 'compromise' where every other movie had Michael. I'm sure that idea wouldn't have been financially viable in the long term but that's what I wish they had done it.

 

[Tommy R]

I’ve accidentally watched almost every Halloween movie this month already. I don’t have any idea how that happened! Only haven’t watched 5 and Resurrection. I’ve already been planning on watching 5 soon as I got the new 4K disc, so I might as well throw in Resurrection as well. It’ll be cool to say I’ve watched ALL the Halloween movies in a single October. Never done that before.

Yesterday I watched the Zombie films back-to-back. I HAD seen the first one a couple of times back when it was new, and didn’t care much for it. I remember it being just sort-of watchable, but overall not very interesting. Watching it again my opinion hasn’t changed much at all. One thing I took note of, though, is how utterly void of suspense it is. Seriously, as bad as say, Halloween 6 is, even THAT one had a couple of cool suspenseful parts and a general “Halloween” feel of atmosphere, even if not done well.

The sequel is just more of the same, but feels even further removed from the Halloween franchise. I have no idea what Zombie was going for, but I’m sure I’m not going to feel the need to see either of these movies ever again.

I watched H20 tonight, thinking it would wash the bad taste of Zombie out of my mouth, but it sadly hasn’t held up well. Strange as I think I last watched it less than a decade ago and always liked it, but I felt let down this time around. It’s mercifully short, so at least I didn’t waste too much time. I still really like the final scene as a series-ender, but the rest of the movie is a product of its time, and not in a good way. Funny how 4 can still be fun over the years with its 80’s vibe, but the post-Scream feel of H20 feels horribly dated.

 

[TravisR]

I’ve accidentally watched almost every Halloween movie this month already. I don’t have any idea how that happened! Only haven’t watched 5 and Resurrection. I’ve already been planning on watching 5 soon as I got the new 4K disc, so I might as well throw in Resurrection as well. It’ll be cool to say I’ve watched ALL the Halloween movies in a single October. Never done that before.

Yesterday I watched the Zombie films back-to-back. I HAD seen the first one a couple of times back when it was new, and didn’t care much for it. I remember it being just sort-of watchable, but overall not very interesting. Watching it again my opinion hasn’t changed much at all. One thing I took note of, though, is how utterly void of suspense it is.

I say this as a fan of some of his movies but it seems like Zombie and many filmmakers today frequently use graphic violence instead of suspense. Or maybe they feel like the shock factor of gore will unsettle audiences in a similar way to building suspense. To be fair, I do think since the mid-2000's and the days of Saw and Hostel that the audience has an expectation of graphic violence in horror movies and the suspense of the original Halloween would equate to boredom for a lot of today's younger audience.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I say this as a fan of some of his movies but it seems like Zombie and many filmmakers today frequently use graphic violence instead of suspense. Or maybe they feel like the shock factor of gore will unsettle audiences in a similar way to building suspense. To be fair, I do think since the mid-2000's and the days of Saw and Hostel that the audience has an expectation of graphic violence in horror movies and the suspense of the original Halloween would equate to boredom for a lot of today's younger audience.

From the Zombie films I have seen, and these do not include his Halloween pictures, the guy has two general issues that plague his work. First, he just has no clue how to pace a story. He seems to enjoy older pictures where pacing was an art but seems not to have caught on to that in any way. Second, he likes to cast his wife, which is fine, but acting seems not to be her thing. I did enjoy Lords of Salem but admit it is not a great film and the pacing is pretty terrible, plus Sherri is not an interesting lead.

On the suspense vs. gore thing, agree. What people seem to want from horror today is gore and jump scares and/or something that is very depressing. If you do suspense you'll get a lot of comments like "This movie is all people walking around and talking." which is not at all what people want it seems. It is essentially the idea of combining every genre with action movie aesthetics. This radically impacts how you pace a film and how you edit it.

Suspense is, by the very nature of the idea, built around pacing. When pacing is now done via stopwatch suspense goes out the window. You sting them with the shock of gore or a jump scare every 3 minutes and rather than "building atmosphere" you just have your characters experience something depressing to set a mood. This mostly seems to be modern horror.

There are exceptions of course but this is the general approach.

 

[Michael Elliott]

HALLOWEEN (2007) is a film I really hated yet I can't stop watching it. Over the past five years I'd say I've seen that one more than any others except 1978 and 2018. There are just so many bad moments that the good ones can't really shine for me. I mean, Love Hurts? Great song. Not so great in the film. Plus, I just really hate most of the characters.

Part 2 for me was just awful. The idea of what he was going for was great but the writing was just horrid. I really wish he would stop writing and let someone else do the writing and him just the directing. The white horse was just too much.

The biggest issue with any of the Zombie films and especially these is that he doesn't know how to write characters that aren't trash. It doesn't matter who the character are they talk and act like trash. The stepdad and a highly educated doctor speak the same way. Laurie doing that sexual thing with her "mom" is just... who the hell does that? The police are trashy. The friends are trashy. Plus the dialogue seems to be written by a 5-year-old boy who was given permission to say fuck all he wants. Once again, no matter if the situation is comedy, romance or horror, the dialogue all sounds the same.

 

[John*Wells]

Ok so Ive skimmed through the entire thread and I get the idea that Carpenter was Good for Halloween and Halloween II and then he didnt want to do anymore. am I right in that?

 

[Michael Elliott]

He was involved in part 3. After that he sold off the rights.