h/k x20 owners--bass management problems

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kevin L K, Dec 6, 2002.

  1. Kevin L K

    Kevin L K Second Unit

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    I have been emailing h/k support regarding bass management in general on my AVR-320 and this is getting worse and worse.Here are the emails:
    ME:
    First of all: Happy Thanksgiving [​IMG]
    I have the 320 and was reading the booklet closely regarding the speaker
    large/small settings and the crossover settings.
    It seems that the crossover setting whether the speakers are set to large or small just affect the the main speakers(front left & right)--but not the center or surrounds.
    I have all 5 of my speakers set to small, with the crossover set to 80Hz,yet the manual also states if the
    speakers are capable of reproducing signals below 100Hz to set them to large.
    So my question is:
    Is the crossover setting of 80Hz sending signals 80Hz and below to the subwoofer from the FRONT SPEAKERS ONLY,and sending signals of 100Hz and below to the subwoofer for the CENTER AND SURROUND SPEAKERS since they are also set to small???? The manual keeps stating that the crossover should be set according the the FRONT speakers frequency capabilities so that's why I ask.
    If you could give me a definitive answer I would really appreciate it.
    Thanks Folks!
    Kevin
    h/k:
    Hi Kevin,
    Yes, that is correct. The crossover setting only applies to the Main Speakers and is fixed at 100Hz for other locations. Low frequency is always directed to the Main L and R channels from your other speakers when they are set to SMALL. All of the bass below 100Hz will go to the main Left and Right channels if you have selected SMALL for Center and Rear/Surround.From there you have a little more control and determine what blend of bass,if any, will go between the subwoofer and main speakers. I hope this
    explains it better. Thanks for your inquiry.
    Sincerely,
    Harold Kevelos
    ME:
    Hi Harold--Happy Holidays and thanks for the reply.
    I do have a question though regarding your statement:
    "All of the bass below 100Hz will go to the main Left and
    Right channels if you have selected SMALL for Center and Rear/Surround"
    According to the 320 manual that statement is NOT correct--the manual specifically states:
    "When SMALL is selected(for center),low-frequency sounds will be sent ONLY TO THE SUBWOOFER OUTPUT".
    It does not state anywhere that they are sent to the mains.It states the exact same thing if the surround speakers are set to small as well. What that means is that
    frequencies of 100Hz and lower are being sent to my subwoofer which is something I DO NOT WANT TO HAPPEN--It is MUCH too easy to localize where the bass
    is coming from with such a high crossover point,and one of the main reasons I bought the 320 was for the bass-management.The whole reason for the email is because
    the frequencies that are coming from the subwoofer are way too high to be below 80Hz--this is very misleading.I do realize the 325 has better bass-management but I don't have one.
    Sorry for the bold type Harold--I wasn't yelling --I just did that to emphasize my points.Can you please clear this up for me--which is correct--you or the manual? Thanks Harold.
    Sincerely,
    Kevin
    h/k:
    Kevin,
    I am sorry but the information in my previous e-mail was incorrect. The bass management features have changed quite a bit during the last few generations. There is only one high-pass crossover frequency used by the AVR320. The options for the crossover are 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz and 100Hz.
    Depending on the setting of your Front speakers you will have the choice of one of these frequencies. Whichever frequency you select, that will be applied to all speakers where high-pass is applicable. This means you will have a 40Hz or 60Hz high-pass to your rear and center speakers, even if they are set to small, as long as the front
    speakers are set to large. This AVR320 will simultaneously set the low-pass setting for your subwoofer to the same value. Thanks for your patience. Please let me know if you need more information.
    Sincerely,
    Harold Kevelos
    Internet Support Specialist
    ME:
    Hi Harold--thanks for such quick replies [​IMG]
    I've always told people h/k has excellent
    support and you prove it!!
    Having said that--
    so you're saying the crossover setting is a
    universal setting for ALL speakers?Why
    are there settings for small/large for the
    center/surrounds then?With all due respect
    that makes no sense.
    Why then does the manual state if center/surround
    speakers are set to large NO frequencies are
    redirected to the subwoofer,and ONLY a full
    range signal is sent to them?It also states--very
    very poorly--that the crossover affects the mains
    only.Again,is the manual wrong or is it correct?
    I can assure you,when my main speakers are set
    to large,and the crossover is set to 60Hz,there is
    NO WAY I'm getting 60Hz signals out of my
    center/surrounds.
    PLEASE don't take this the wrong way Harold,
    but can you please check with one of the engineers,
    and make sure your statement regarding the crossover
    being universal for ALL speakers--regardless of
    what the center/surrounds are set to is correct?
    Thanks for helping me with this Harold-have a great
    weekend.
    Kevin
    This is just driving me crazy [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    AFAIK, any speaker set to 'Large' will play full-frequency and any speaker set to 'Small' will crossover at the selected crossover frequency. If you have your main speakers set to 'Large' and the others to 'Small' then the front left/right will play full frequency and, IIRC, you then get a crossover choice of 60 or 80Hz. This is the crossover from the mains to the sub. So, if your surrounds are set to Small, all bass below 100Hz will be sent to the Front speakers first, and then the 60/80Hz selection will determine what of that then gets routed to the Sub. So if you select 60Hz., the front speakers will play ALL frequencies in the left/right channels, PLUS bass between 60Hz. and 100Hz for all other speakers set to Small.

    Does this make sense? Probably not, but I can't think of a better way to describe it!
     
  3. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    This is the way I'm guessing it works. I believe the manual is wrong, as it claims that all bass from 'small' speakers goes ONLY to the 'sub' preout. Surely, they aren't requiring everyone use a powered sub with their receivers. It makes more sense to route all the bass to the main speakers, then manage between them and a sub. That's why there's choices to make based on whether your mains are 'large' or 'small'. My best guess.
     
  4. DonT

    DonT Stunt Coordinator

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    edited by poster
     
  5. DonT

    DonT Stunt Coordinator

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    you are both incorrect. when a speaker is set to "small" the bass below the crossover frequency is ONLY routed to the subwoofer. if you have it set to "no subwoofer" you will NOT get a crossover option, therefore for either large or small speaker settings the receiver will send full range to each speaker (and will send the LFE to the front speakers only). the crossover option is only available when there is a subwoofer present. NO receiver as far as i know will route surround and center bass to the FRONT speakers, only the sub. ANY speaker set to "small" will have its bass below the crossover setting rerouted to the sub. i hope this helps.
     
  6. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Don,

    How many receivers have you actually tested for this? Further, stop and think about it a second. I don't know about you, but I have friends who have tower speakers who think they have all the bass they'll ever need, and thus, refuse to buy a powered sub. Do people like them miss out on all the 'low-passed' bass from speakers set to 'small' just because they don't have powered subs? Fact is, 'large' front speakers get the bass from all 'small' speakers, then the 'sub' is sometimes given the choice of running 'lfe' bass, or both 'lfe' bass and 'low-passed' bass. It's like this on my friend's Aiwa receiver, it's like this on my Pioneer Elite 33tx, but on my Onkyo 676, I don't get a choice. 'Low-passed' bass goes to my front speakers AND my sub if fronts are set to 'large'. Now, back to the topic. I do believe the HKs work like this as well, I just have to find one to test. I'll be sure to post my results when I get them.
     
  7. DonT

    DonT Stunt Coordinator

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    baldemar, i am speaking from a denon standpoint. you are saying that if you set a speaker to small without a sub it routes all bass below the crossover to the fronts. well that is impossible on a denon because the only time you GET a crossover option is when a sub is enabled. in fact the crossover option is located in the subwoofer submenu. therefore without a sub there is no crossover and there cannot be any bass going to the fronts, regardless of if the speakers are set to small or large. i would imagine most other mfrs do things pretty much this same way.
     
  8. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Don,

    The only problem I had with your statement was your claim that bass below the crossover point can go ONLY to the subwoofer. This is in fact not true. When front speakers are set to large, they get the bass from 'small' speakers as well, in a lot of receivers. The fact that most receivers act this way, led to Kevin's original question, which I now believe is very valid. He was simply wondering if the crossover point he selected on his HK applied only to the front speakers. His email exchanges with HK only added more confusion. I stand by my best guess as to what I believe the HK is doing in its bass management. Oh, and just because there is no 'crossover' option setting, means that there is no 'bass management'. I don't know how old your Denon is, but most receivers over 4-5 years old had no crossover setting. The reason more crossover flexibility is now being offered is simple: a features contest among manufacturers. On your Denon, crossover choices are offered to better blend your sub in with your other speakers.

    Kevin,
    Any progress on figuring out exactly how the HK handles its bass management?
     
  9. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    Don, even your Denon has to do SOMETHING with the bass if you configure your system for no subwoofer and small center and surround speakers. I'll bet that if you configure your receiver for no subwoofer, you'll have no choice but 'large' front speakers. I think most receivers use a default 100Hz crossover point in this case.
     
  10. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Kevin,

    I tested a 310 last night and found that Harold's first response was correct. If front speakers are set to large, they get the bass from the other small speakers. The manual is wrong, sort of! If front speakers are set to small also, then yes, only the sub output gets bass. You'll notice you're forced to have a sub when all speakers are set to small.

    Knowing this, I can only speculate about the crossover settings. I do believe that crossover settings apply only to the front speakers. It seems to me since choices are based on the settings for the front speakers, they are intended to best blend front bass with the subwoofer. I'd guess that the center/surrounds use the default 100Hz, but I have no equipment to test for this. It wouldn't make sense that the crossover setting is universal, as that would mean you could have small center/surrounds that are high-passed at 40Hz/60Hz (the settings available when front speakers are large).

    Further, notice that the sub can be set as lfe or l/r + lfe, meaning that it can be dedicated to lfe, or it can share bass with the fronts. So fronts will always get bass from small speakers, as well as their own full range signal. You can choose whether you want the sub to have some of this bass. Hope this helps.
     
  11. sean strugnell

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    I tested my newly acquired AVR320 last night using the AVIA test tones (low frequency sweep tones).

    Experiment set-up:
    I set my main speakers to LARGE with crossover at 60Hz (Sub set to LFE + L/R) and center and surrounds set to SMALL. For this experiment, I unplugged my sub so that I could tell exactly where the other speakers started to cut out.

    Test Tones:
    These frequency sweeps isolate each channel and play a test tone that starts at a high frequency (200 HZ) and slowly descends to 20Hz while showing the frequncy on the display as it descends.

    Observation 1:
    During the sweeps for the center and surrounds set to SMALL), there was no sound going to the mains btween the 100 and 60Hz frequencies. My SPL meter showed strong output for these speakers until roughly 80 Hz.

    Observation 2:
    For the mains, the SPL meter showed strong output all the way down to 40Hz.

    Conclusions:
    The crossover does seem to route all low pass sound from the center and surrounds to the sub. This appears to contradict what Baldemar reported with the 310. He observed low pass tones going to the Mains. Is it possible that this was observed with Sub set to "none"?

    I also found it curious that despite setting my Main crossover to 60Hz, my mains were strong for another 20Hz (close to their output limit (36Hz +/- 3db). I am wondering if the LFE + L/R setting is only a high pass filter for the sub. In other words, the mains get a full range signal, and the sub only plays from the crossover point and below.

    I will fiddle around with the AVR320 a bit more tomorrow and report back with any new findings.
     
  12. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Sean,

    You are correct. I did my test with the sub set to 'none'. Bass was sent from the small speakers to the large mains. The manual claims that bass from small speakers goes ONLY to the sub preout, which is not true. Sorry for the confusion. I didn't check to see where bass went if fronts were large and sub was on. I speculated that bass from small speakers would still go to the large fronts, and there be 'managed' to the sub based on settings.

    According to the manual, large speakers will get a full range signal. The crossover is simply a low-pass for the sub. But what happened to the 100 - 60Hz material? This looks crazy...Please keep us posted.
     
  13. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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  14. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm back to hopefully clear things up. Finally got to feeling better this morning, so I set up my 320 temporarily for some quick bass management tests. I did this with an o-scope, monitoring signals on the preouts. That way, there's no misinterpretation of results due to speaker output issues. Don't know what happened to Kevin, but I hope he's still reading. Still, the results surprised even me.
    In a nutshell, ALL bass goes to the subwoofer, UNLESS it is set to NONE. So I've been partly right and wrong in my previous assumptions. The LFE setting is misleading to me, as I interpret it to mean only LFE soundtrack material. This is not true; it will also get bass from small center/surrounds. Large fronts get no bass from small speakers UNLESS the sub is NONE. The most surprising part to me: The crossover setting is in fact 'global'. IOW, you can have small center/surrounds, with a crossover of 60Hz or 40Hz. Seems weird to me that the fronts aren't capable of this. So Harold from HK was correct, and so was Johnny.
    My apologies for any confusion. BTW, the L/R + LFE setting feeds FL/FR bass to the subwoofer. WARNING: I did my tests only with Dolby Digital material, using the 200Hz-20Hz sweeps from Avia. I don't expect different performance with different program material, but you never know [​IMG]
    I also did a quick check for the dts LFE issue. According to my scope, I don't believe there will be a problem. The dts LFE output was about equal in output to the other channels. I'm lacking banana jacks, so I'll have to wait to complete hook-up for SPL meter testing. I'm hopeful this issue was corrected starting with this series.
    Hope this helps.
     
  15. Nick Cerretti

    Nick Cerretti Stunt Coordinator

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    Baldemar,

    I had the same thoughts with the DTS lfe issue. Unfortunately I don't have much software w/ dts, but going through lotr, I didn't notice I was missing anything, especially considering the number thrown around is that the LFE is -16 db then what it should be.
     
  16. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Well Nick,

    As many others have attested, there is no dts LFE problem with the AVR-320. Just got done testing it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the dts LFE output. I must now apologize to many people for repeating what was reported as being said by an HK engineer. And also for assuming that the problem was held over from the older models. I will also assume that the 520 is free from this defect.
     
  17. sean strugnell

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    Hmmmmm - let me try to understand this....

    With a setting of
    L+R - large crossover 60Hz
    Rears & Center Small

    ...the AVR320 sends full range signal to mains, but cuts all low frequency below 60Hz to SMALL speakers and reroutes to sub?

    In other words, the AVR320 only uses both high pass and low pass crossovers when a speaker is set as SMALL? When set to LARGE, the AVR320 does not invoke any kind of crossover?

    LARGE L&R with 60Hz crossover and SMALL surrounds and center:
    20 Hz to 20Khz goes to L&R
    60 Hz to 20 KHZ goes to surrounds & center
    20 Hz to 60Hz (from 5 channels) + LFE (usually 20 Hz to 120Hz) goes to sub

    So perhaps the old addage of always use SMALL settings for HT proves to be true... That way, at least your mains are not producing the same low frequency bass that your sub is producing (effectively doubling the levels of these frequencies).
     
  18. sean strugnell

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    Oops - I almost forgot that I too did some DTS testing with LOTR last night. I programmed my DVD player to continuously play the sequence where Saruman orders the Orcs to knock all the trees down. I then switched between DD and DTS every time the sequence restarted. I found that DTS seems to be about 6db lower overall across all channels compared with Dolby (maybe this is because of how I calibrated it), so I had to jack up the master volume by 6db when I switched to DTS and jack it back down by 6db when going to Dolby. However, I am absolutely sure that there is no difference between DTS LFE output.
     
  19. Steven Simon

    Steven Simon Producer

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    Real Name:
    Steven Simon
    Actually Sean,

    The DD soundtrack of FOTR DVD was recorder 10db's to high......
     
  20. sean strugnell

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    Why do they keep screwing around with sound levels in different movies? You would think everyone would want to maintain some sort of consistency. Did they record it too loud so that they could say "mine goes to 11"?
     

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