Greatest Soundtrack Ever: Lord of the Rings voted Number One. (1 Viewer)

[Michael Taylor]

many musicians and music critics consider John Williams a hack

Could you please site verifiable examples of musicians and critics who have stated that Williams is a hack? I mean, for a hack, he managed to produce a few scores that stand on their own merits!

 

[Randy Korstick]

Michael
A search in the Music section for the Classical Music Appreciation thread will show you many such examples of this. If you have not run across this before you must not read many magazines or watch many programs on t.v. associated with classical music or film scores although they would not use as strong of words as hack as a public statement even if its what the believe.

 

[andrew markworthy]

It's interesting that the negative comments about John Williams reflect the established opinion re: Korngold 50 years ago. Now Korngold is a woefully neglected genius, apparently.

I think claiming JW is among the great classical composers is frankly a little over the top, but he is certainly a great *popular* composer, and there's absolutely no sin in that.

 

[Kevin M]

62. The Dark Crystal (Trevor Jones)- Trevor Jones’ impressive and diverse career really kicked off with his full blown orchestral score for Jim Henson’s underrated fantasy, an ambitious attempt to create an entirely new world on film through the use of puppets and animatronics. One of the most sought after titles currently unavailable legitimately on CD, The Dark Crystal contains a majestic opener, a tender love theme, and enough memorable little motifs to stuff a dozen other scores.

Now that's a list I can respect. Thanks for the link Bill.

 

[Bill Huelbig]

Thanks for the link Bill

You're welcome, Steve. OHMSS is my favorite John Barry (and Bond) score too. I only wish they could have fit Alex North in there somewhere, for SPARTACUS and/or CLEOPATRA if for nothing else.

--Bill

 

[Tom Ryan]

Randy, I'm beginning to wonder, have YOU ever listened to all of Williams' soundtracks albums? They're filled with incredible things on the periphery, completely apart from the generally bombastic main themes. Williams is completely capable of running from the quiet and disturbing to the enveloping and grandiose. He is a master of every nuance of the art of film scoring, and he's simply the best that's ever lived. That's coming from a musician. And comparing him to Britney Spears? I've never heard anyone make such blanket statements.

 

[Bill Huelbig]

Now that's a list I can respect. Thanks for the link Bill.

You're welcome too, Kevin. I especially liked the detailed explanations giving the reasons why each score is worthwhile. Whoever put the list together really knows what they're talking about.

--Bill

 

[Agee Bassett]

Not quite. The dissenting voice on Korngold emanated primarily from the supercilious, hoary European musical haute monde of the 30’s, who felt he was bastardizing his prodigious talents writing for something as “common” as films (a far cry from the coarsened, liberalized attitudes of today's musical establishment towards film music); and to whom he was viewed as a reactionary--an anachronism--for failing to move on from the 19th century influences which shaped his work, and fall in line with the Dissonant Movement (then taking the musical world by storm). However, even his harshest critics, when bothered enough to investigate the oeuvre of this “sell-out”, were forced to concede that the texture and complexity of his compositions equaled that of any “serious” composer of the day--a charge no learned critic of music can level at John Williams today.

 

[Michael Taylor]

Randy,

No, I don't read any periodicals or watch TV shows associated with classical music or film scores. So, again, please site specific magazine titles and/or TV programs so that I may see what you are talking about. I will try to find the thread you are talking about, but it is too easy to post any kind of crap when you hide behind the anonymity of the internet. If someone who makes their living as a critic is willing to make those judgments and stand by them, then I will honestly listen to them to hear why they think Williams is a "hack".

Not to be difficult, but what, in your opinion, makes any musician or film score composer a "hack"? My experience with music is limited to three years of violin lessons. I am more of a music fan, than a student of the arts. Therefore, I couldn't even begin to make a judgement that someone is a "hack". All I know is, I like what I like. If the learned masses consider Williams a hack, it still doesn't change the fact that I greatly enjoy many of his film scores.

 

[Randy Korstick]

Quote:
Randy, I'm beginning to wonder, have YOU ever listened of all of Williams' soundtracks albums?
Unfortunately I have heard far too many given the # of popular movies he gets to compose for. I am one who enjoys film soundtracks very much and I have collected more than 200 of them from old and new composers and I'm happy to say I don't own a single one any more than I would own a Britney Spears album but I have listened to complete ones before and always pay attention to film music during a movie. So I know his complete work very well.
Quote:
They're filled with incredible things on the periphery, completely apart from the generally bombastic main themes. Williams is completely capable of running from the quiet and disturbing to the enveloping and grandiose...
Just about any soundtrack composer can do this and should be able to. The problem with John Williams is that all his emotion is in the "Bombastic main themes". The rest of his work generally lacks emotion. As I said I enjoy soundtracks alot and particularly ones that can make me sad so I am easily moved by music and I have never felt any emotion in John Williams music with the exception of "Schindlers List". He just leaves me cold and I am a musician too.
I am happy to state that he is the Britney Spears of film composers and stand behind that.
But maybe I should have said that he is the Joe Six pack Composer. That maybe more accurate.

 

[Tom Ryan]

Just about any soundtrack composer can do this and should be able to. The problem with John Williams is that all his emotion is in the "Bombastic main themes". The rest of his work generally lacks emotion. As I said I enjoy soundtracks alot and particularly ones that can make me sad so I am easily moved by music and I have never felt any emotion in John Williams music with the exception of "Schindlers List". He just leaves me cold and I am a musician too.

I am happy to state that he is the Britney Spears of film composers and stand behind that.
But maybe I should have said that he is the Joe Six pack Composer. That maybe more accurate.

Well, you can be very happily wrong. It's pretty obvious that your opinion is vastly in the minority, since Williams' work is widely considered some of the most emotional in cinema. But think as you will.

 

[Michael Taylor]

62. The Dark Crystal (Trevor Jones)

This is one of my all-time favorites, but since the only copy of this score is a cassette tape I bought for $1 in a bargain bin, I thought I was in the minority who think this is a great score. It's nice to know that there are others out there that share my opinion.

Has The Dark Crystal score ever been published on CD? If so, I guess I can try to look out for it at online auction sites. I never actually play my original copy for fear that my player will eat it and I won't be able to replace it. Instead, I listen to an old copy I made on my cassette deck. One of these days, I will just hook my stereo up to my computer and burn the tape onto CD so I don't have to worry about my tape being destroyed.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

Has The Dark Crystal score ever been published on CD?

Michael,
I don't believe it's ever had an official release on CD, but there are bootlegs (which you should avoid) out there. It is scheduled for official release sometime later this year on Numenorean Music, which should be available at Buy Soundtrax . There is no real info about it on their site, however. You can also keep an eye on Film Score Monthly for the latest news.

 

[Randy Korstick]

Quote:
It's pretty obvious that your opinion is vastly in the minority,...

Which was exactly my point of him being mainstream just as your opinion is in the minority if you don't like Britney Spears. But the fact that the majority like John Williams and Britney Spears does not make either of them the "greatest ever" or even good.

Michael
There is obviously nothing wrong with you "liking what you like" but don't pretend to want examples like you have a knowledge in the subject and then back of with this excuse and accuse me of posting "crap" and "lies".
Lets just leave it as you said you like him and I don't.

 

[Ben Osborne]

Randy,

I took a fundamentals of music class in college and the professor, who was a part-time conductor and composer, had similar thoughts about John Williams. He pointed out that many of Williams famous themes borrow heavily from earlier composers. Listen to the similarities between Holst's The Planets, especially the "Mars, Bringer of War" movement, and the Star Wars score, for instance.

 

[Tom Ryan]

Which was exactly my point of him being mainstream just as your opinion is in the minority if you don't like Britney Spears. But the fact that the majority like John Williams and Britney Spears does not make either of them the "greatest ever" or even good.

The majority being those who are in a position to know both film and music, not the general populace.

 

[Jay_Leonard]

and main themes are what the masses with short attention spans remember

So If I composed dificult themes with hard to remember phrasing, that would make me great?

Pardon the flame but that is stupid. Writing (even Borrowing)great themes is the whole point of writing good music. If you are going to spend the next three minutes or two hours developing the theme it best hold up...

Williams does not need me to defend him, but he is not and will not be the last composer to "Borrow" Bethoven gets an awuful lot of credit for his ninth symphony that is rightly deserved, but the themes were not his.

J

 

[Randy Korstick]

Your absolutely correct Ben.
Which one of the main reasons I think Williams appeals to the masses because he writes music that is vaguely familiar to people. It is because he borrows from classical music and even from his past scores.

Another example besides Holst's Planets is Dvorak's Symphony # 9 . You can hear the Jaws theme lifted here as well as the March music from Star Wars.

This type of borrowing is the main reason I consider him a hack. Being inspired by another work is fine and done by many composers but changing a few notes around and calling it your own is not being inspired its ripping off.

 

[Randy Korstick]

Jay
Had you read the whole post from the beginning it would not be "stupid" to you.

The list was on the greatest soundtrack ever. That means the whole thing not just the main theme. My point was that the majority of film watchers do not pay that much attention to film music. They just watch the movie but main themes particularly ones that are loud and in your face they can't help but notice. And since most of John Williams main themes are loud and in your face and from popular movies people know them and thus he gets alot of votes. But many of the voters probably have not heard the complete albums they voted for and just know the main theme. I never stated that a theme had to be complicated and unmemorable to be great. What I am saying is that the whole soundtrack should be good as a complete piece of work and not just a few goods themes and alot of filler music. Soundtracks should definately not spend the next 2 hours exploring a theme. Those are the most repetive soundtracks and most of John Williams soundtracks do not explore a theme for 2 hours either.

 

[Terrell]

Utter baloney, Randy.

Couldn't have said it better myself.