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Great article on all the post format war doomsaying... (1 Viewer)

Paul_Scott

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Man-Fai, I've already said that I eagerly buy what appeals to me, and ignore the vast majority that don't ( trying not to encourage bad title releasing habits). Further more, I've defended far more releases from the irrational ire of the cheerleaders and tier-istas than I have disparaged. Great suffering chowder Man, what more am I supposed to do? As far as the Bd variety goes- break those release down by decade. Bd exclusive studios rarely breeched a 1997-200x barrier.
On the optimism of economies of scale coming to 'rise all ships with the tide'- there are just a couple problems with that. 1) Sony (and the other Bd CEMs) want to keep prices higher for a while. They've been entirely candid in this respect at least. By most accounts Warner got a sweetheart deal which means it probably cost Sony and the BDA dearly...but that was far more palatable than continuing to bleed in hardware subsidies (exacerbated by being forced to compete with Toshiba and it's high value, low cost players) AND huge software subsidies (just who WAS paying for the twice monthly BOGOs all last year?)
2) I think its a cozy dream to expect prices to recede simply because this is 'computer/tech' related. Fuel(for transporting materials and stock) and petroleum (for plastics) are costs that are going to be going up more than they ever come down. Inflation will remain steady and robust, the 'cheap' chinese mfgrs are being frozen out, the dollar and it's import purchasing power is in serious decline, and just about everyone else here realizes there is little interest, no desire, (and as I've seen personally- some outright hostility) towards an 'elite' form of dvd sold at any kind of premium at this point . Where and when on earth do you see these economies of scale naturally occuring?
 

drobbins

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Trolling! :eek: Rather harsh accusation. Chill out ;) I am just ignorant. :frowning: There has been so much hype, personal "facts" on both formats, I haven't read any more than a few threads on HDM & I am definitely not an expert on film making.

I know digital recording is a recent event for home use, but I don't know when the studios started using it. I would presume they did before the massas did. All the old movies that I have seen on VHS and even on DVD, have not impressed me with the film quality compared to newer movies. Example would be El Cid vs I Robot, Star Wars 4 vs Star Wars 3.

My current DVD player has started acting up lately and if I need to replace it, that would be the reason I get a bluray player. Thanks for the info Doug & Paul
 

Scooter

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Actually, the 70's through 90's saw some use of video in feature film production. Mostly as an "instant replay" of what was just shot. In 1987 there was the flick "Julia and Julia" which I think was shot on tape and transferred to video. If not, it was some Kathleen Turner flick around the same time. 200 Motels by Zappa (1971) was shot on tape as well.

Incidently, the first major proponent of video/film marriage was Jerry Lewis who was the first to use it extensively. He also, around the same time, launched a franchise of cinemas that was the first movie theaters to use pancake loop projectors, for better or for worse.
 

Jari K

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Well, you could say that the majority of the motion pictures are shot in film stock ( Film stock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - even today, but of course "High-definition video" ( High-definition video - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is gaining more ground all the time. The time when "HD video" will "replace" film stock altogether (in motion pictures) is still rather far away. Film stock has still many advantages in quality wise.

Movies "made in the 60s, 70s , & 80s" (like you said) are almost solely shot in film stock (at least in 16 mm) with film cameras, since "High-definition video" didn´t even exist back then. "Video" back then was a totally different thing than "High-definition video" now. VHS was launched in September 1976.. People often confuse these terms (e.g. "DVD" is a totally different thing than "DV-format", etc).

So if the film is originally shot in film stock or "High-definition video", they´ll definitely benefit from Blu-ray and 1080 resolution (compared to SD DVD, VHS, LD or any other "home video" format before Blu-ray). So don´t worry about that. Go and get that Blu-ray-player (make sure that it´s profile 1.1, though - and 2.0 probably too). :)

Of course, plenty is depending on the SOURCE MATERIAL also, so "Blu-ray" alone doesn´t make the film look suddenly "perfect". Roughly like this, I guess:
a) Find the best source materials that you can find (e.g. original film negatives, etc). Several sources might be needed.
b) Clean those actual film negatives carefully.
c) Duplicate those film negatives into digital form (I guess 2k or 4k?).
d) Clean, fix, remaster and restore those materials via computer.
e) Create brand new digital master (now fully "restored")
f) From that new digital master, you can now release the film in SD DVD-format, Blu-ray-format, etc.

Point is, that Blu-ray is just one "format" (other obvious one is SD DVD) from the digital master (that usually has even higher resolution than 1080p).

(hope this is not too confusing, it´s quite late at the moment when I write this..)
 

Paul_Scott

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I used to think the same- that dvd would see a natural attrition to an HD format going forward in an HD display centric landscape. I now realize several things.
1) many (most?) 'HD' display owners own them for form (space, profile- size,style, etc) rather than function (higher res, higher quality picture).
2) you have to go back and view LD in the context of it's heyday. It was a very robust niche, and actually not priced at the substantial premium people think today. $24.99-$39.99 was not a huge premium over $19.99-$29.99 VHS pre-records. Even moreso since there was a huge form differentiation between the two. VHS was king and primarily a rental medium because the tech was foremost purchased for something else- timeshifting. It was convienent to then subsist on a diet of tapes for all your TV entertainment needs. It is not a coincidence that recordability was there for a part of DVDs asscention. Just as its not a coincidence that DVRs have more interest and enthusiasm amongst the general consumer than HD optical disc players do.
3) DVD is a more than sufficent an 'HT' delivery medium for the overwhelming majority of Joe-Six HTs. Simple as that. The studios want some kind of premium priced media to SUPPLEMENT Dvd revenue. There is no point in trying to replace it if margins ultimately are only interchanged. I honestly think we are looking at a better than DVHS/Worse than LD sales generator here. Bd is the fix for a problem only a few people, like us here, have. The only way to fix that is to purposefully degrade the eqiuvilent sd release in the future. Problem with doing that is they may convince people to abandon optical discs altogether...if they feel they are being extorted. In that case the alternative-a DVR+ sat sub would easily suffice.
 

Robert Crawford

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Then we disagree on this issue and we'll see how everything plays out in the next several years.




Crawdaddy
 

ManW_TheUncool

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And how does any of this let DVD (or HD DVD) off its hook (other than the part about the studios wanting to make some $$$ they no longer can w/ DVD)??

If what you suggest is true, then DVD itself is doomed too. How long can the studios and retailers sustain the current trend of DVD pricing if that's the case?? Indeed, you should then believe that VOD/download is gonna win it all sooner than we think.

BTW, standard BD packaging seems to take up less space (and maybe even weigh a bit less) than DVD. The studios will save a few bucks w/ those other operating costs over DVD in that regard. ;)

_Man_
 

Professor_Echo

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I think it is somewhat disingenuous to think that BD hardware or software will substantially decrease in price at any time. One of the motivating factors behind the creation of HD hard disc formats was not just some altruistic attempt to produce better quality, but to make DVD profitable once again.

Prices have gotten so low on SD DVD players and discs that the market has bottomed out. Both manufacturers and retailers are gambling on HD technology to pump more profits back into a dying industry. Their goal is to re-educate the masses that better quality comes at a higher price, not lower prices to SD levels and get themselves into the same economic mess they are in right now. They realized with SD that volume is not going to satiate their bottom line so the upfront cost must be higher.

This will prove to be the biggest hurdle they have to overcome. Prices are only going to go so low on BD and people will have to buy into the idea that they are getting more for their money than SD. I think it's too little too late to try and re-train buying habits that have become so ingrained. And how to thwart the apathy many feel over what they see as just outright extortion to once more trade up to a technology that may be surpassed in another month.

As I've posted in this forum before: Follow the money. If prices don't come down to the levels of SD then I believe the format is doomed. Yet right now I just don't see any manufacturer or retailer willing to substantially lower prices and run the risk of heading down that SD path again. Therein lies what's known as a Mexican standoff. So what's the answer?
 

Robert Crawford

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I don't understand your choice of words such as "disingenuous"? Prices for BD will come down for hardware and software, but to expect them to be at the levels of SD DVD in the near future is not realistic and is unfair to this new video format.





Crawdaddy
 

KezW

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I'm watching SD stretched and zoomed to avoid burn-in on my plasma!

Well, actually the rest of the family insists on watching SD. I'd rather seek out a real HD channel to watch.

Kez
 

Douglas Monce

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This isn't that surprising when you consider that Warner probably owns more films from the 30 to the 60s that just about any other studio.

Doug
 

Walter Kittel

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True enough Doug, but even the period from 1970 to 1999 only represents 21% of available titles.

I believe/guess that most consumers are looking for new titles vs. double dipping so it makes financial sense to focus on new releases; but I still hope that the studios can throw us fans of older cinema a bone from time to time.

- Walter.
 

Professor_Echo

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By disingenuous I meant giving a false impression of the current state of accepting or rejecting BD as a viable replacement/alternative to SD, the ostensible topic of this thread. Perhaps NAIVE would have been a better term as I didn't mean to imply that anyone was being intentionally misleading, just perhaps not always seeing the forest for the trees.

My point is that BD price levels will never substantially decrease as one of the primary reasons for developing and marketing the product is to offset losses from SD. To think that BD will ever come down in price to the points we've seen with SD is being very unrealistic in my estimation.

What incentive do these companies have for repeating the same mistakes they made with SD? I think it's possible that HD/BD has been a last ditch effort to revive profits in a software industry that is slowly fading out the same way that CDs have. I'm not saying that you don't get your money's worth with BD, but trying to convince the general public who never visits sites such as HTF is a tough sell.

I will be glad to be proven wrong and invest in higher quality merchandise, but right now there is not enough support on any end of the spectrum to justify the added expense.

BD reminds me of a lot like CRITERION. You pay more money for what is generally regarded as a superior product, but it's still a boutique item and a niche market.
 

drobbins

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Hey, No problem. :) Thanks for the insight. I think that there a lot of educating to be done before HDM is running correctly in the majority of households.
 

Paul_Scott

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Robert why would they EVER come down to sd levels? Where would sd go? Even lower? I don't see the point or the enthusiams from the studios in making the mass market price for new releases sub $10(retail w/ a $15 msrp). That's about as low as I can see sd (new releases and re-mastered CEs) going while still leaving room for a lower priced Bd ( figure $20-$30 msrps- catalog/new releases). On second thought...ok. I guess I could see that happening eventually. The only problem is that the presence of a direct comparison will always make the higher priced alternative seem 'unfair, too harsh, not worth it,' etc
Also I don't really see the point for any studio (besides Sony) to bother going to the trouble of creating and enforcing two media stratas. Couldn't they simply draw a line in the sand at any point and declare this is the lowest we want to encourage new/catalog to be sold at? I don't see the excitement from a studio perspective in trading a mass market medium that costs(hypothetically) $1.25 to make and retails for$15 in 2007 with one that costs $1.50 to make and retails for $20 in 2011. Because by that time the $1.25 model would likely be down another $.25 and the rise in margin in the case of the $1.50 model would likely be offset by fewer people buying because of the (relatively) higher price and changing purchasing/social/tech trends.
FWIW I don't think Bd is the last shot we have at a packaged HD media. The last shot at an optical DISC based media probably...but its a long time until dowloads will be ubiquitous. And don't forget, Sonys looking forward to that day just as much as the other studios.
 

Douglas Monce

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Has anyone else noticed that the price of new SD DVDs has been creeping up? At Walmart a new release SD DVD used to be $19.95 or less even for a 2 disc special edition. Now they are regularly $22 or $23.

Doug
 

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