GR or Adire? (1 Viewer)

[Anthony_Gomez]

I think that, with a subwoofer, most of the strengths of the Usher woofer would not be used.

here are 2 big (IMO) reasons that the Ushers are still agood option even "with" a sub.
1) you are able to XO them lower making the sub even more non-localizable.
2) You are not "forced" to use a sub with music. even with well intigrated subs, I find I like the "full range" 2-way more enjoyable with music, then a 2-way w/ sub. With the flick of a switch, I can change my Ushers to XO with the sub for movies, or full range with music.

This doesn't discredit other options, but I didn't completely agree with the above statement (again, just my opinion

YMMV

 

[Chris Tsutsui]

I have a question for those familiar with the Tag Band tweeters...

Parts express shielded TB tweeter #264-802 looks identical to the GR-Research T1 tweeter. However, I do not know if there were any slight modifications done to the T1 to fit with Danny's designs. Does anyone know what type of modification there would be?

I have dissected a T1 tweeter, and fried a VC of one too. They seem to be identical to the #264-802 but looks can be misleading. I suppose if I bought a pair of #264-802s I could do a direct comparison of the tweeters.

Brian Tatnall, the date is a typo, I will review the two this Saterday.. YGM

 

[Brian Fellmeth]

Brian :

There is nothing wrong with using a 2 way monitor as a center channel. The notion that a "proper" center channel should be horizontal and have more than 2 drivers is marketing nonsense. The ONLY reason for a center to be horizontal is asthetics. Its job is exactly the same as the other speakers- accurate replication of the audio spectrum that is fed to it. You could even turn a bookshelf on its side if it looks odd taller than wide- there are theoretal reasons to avoid this, but the issues are very minor and douptfully audible to a non fanatic. My point is that you shouldn't let the lack of a matching "center channel" kit drive your choice. For example, three MBOW1s across the front with a good sub would make an outstanding HT front and killer for music.



MBOW1 in walnut, a few more pics here

 

[Brian Bunge]

Brian,

Yes, nice name! I have the A/V-1+'s in my system as well as an Adire LCC. One of the main reasons I never tried the KIT281's is because I know if I have to choose between excellent bass and excellent midrange, but can't have both at the same time, I'll choose the midrange. I can add a subwoofer to augment the low end if absolutely necessary.

I have been really impressed with the LCC as a center channel. The AV5 really seems to have smooth response and the AV8's definitely have impressive bass output. I think the dynamics are awesome and make it perfect for HT use. It blends relatively well with the A/V-1+'s. When the 3-way towers are available it would be really tempting to try them out. I'd still expect the A/V-1+'s to have midrange quality more to my liking though.

 

[Michael R Price]

Brian,

About a year and a half ago I went looking for my first "real" speakers for a stereo - not HT yet. Since I was constrained by money and I was only listening to music I considered "mostly full range" speakers in addition to the sub/sat type or minimonitors. Given my experience with the Shiva driver and some helpful comments from forum members like James Johnson I picked the Kit281s over some other (smaller and better quality) options because I was looking for a speaker with a good soundstage, pretty deep bass so I wouldn't *have* to buy a subwoofer, and a dynamic sound.

Anyway, the Kit281s cost a total of $450 to build... mine are tuned to 24Hz (not 29Hz) because of my stupid mistake with computer simulations, so they have a little less bass than optimal. Anyway in my 12x15 room the bass extends to 20Hz cleanly with a sine sweep. I'd put the useful lower limit at high volumes between 30 and 50Hz, but since I am crazy I actually think the Kit281s are better off used with a subwoofer, especially for movies. But the key is, unlike some other speakers you don't need one... you won't miss out on much of the music. The 281s bass quality is fine, they're capable of a good bit of output and have a full, lively sound, that I would be surprised if it was matched by a smaller speaker. They keep the "texture" in the sound, the unique distortion of a bass guitar, etc, even if you exaggerate the midbass a bit with room placement.

The sound is harsh at the beginning. Over time (a long time, and only if you also stress the woofers significantly) this goes away entirely. The problem with the midrange in this speaker is that the AV8 midwoofer runs into breakup above 1KHz, just like any other relatively large midwoofer... and this problem is not really bad compared to metal or kevlar woofers, anyway. Adire tried to reduce this with a steep crossover, but I can definitely tell there's a little bit of midrange distortion, only on certain sounds. For example, some high notes of voices played really loud (really loud) sound a bit "forceful"... not obviously harsh or distorted, but a little too forward, and I think it's not accurate. Otherwise the midrange is just like everyone talks about any good speaker... clear, smooth, and realistic.

Oops, forgot to point this out, unfortunately the Kit281 is an inefficient (87db) speaker dropping to 2.8 ohm impedance. They'll sound good with a receiver, but you'll definitely notice the sound get much stronger and less harsh when you put in a good amplifier. I think anywhere from 200 to 400 watts at 4 ohms is enough to use all of the output capability (which is a lot ).

The treble's fine, the Audax fabric tweeter in these are nothing special, but they don't really do anything wrong. The response is within 3db to 20KHz, they can go plenty loud and clean, and the soundstage is "big" and "solid." I couldn't compare it to the GR tweeter or anything else in quality, because the speakers are voiced differently. The Kit281 has an almost flat response with about 1db (almost unnoticeable) extra output in the 8-15KHz range, a small crossover modification will make it flat or lower than flat if you want. I'll leave it up to everyone else to call this speaker "bright" versus "neutral"... but the measurements say it is entirely neutral. When the band wants to excite you with a cymbal crash, you'll know about it (in a good way). The sound can be startlingly clear.

The review of the 281 with good measurements and a subjective evaluation I agree with, are found at http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/AX-KIT281Review.pdf

Yah, in an attempt to be honest and unbiased I will say: The Kit281 sacrifices midrange and treble quality per dollar in exchange for a lively sound with great lower midrange and bass quality. I honestly think the GR kits are a better value if you are not so concerned with dynamics or bass, unless you think the relatively forward and exciting sound of the Kit281 is worth paying for.

(that's a long one, I'll save it and whenever anyone asks I'll post it again...)

 

[Danny Richie]

Chris,

It is a copy of the tweeter that they made for us that they produced in the plant that they opened in China.

The diaphragms should interchange.

What the response looks like is anybodies guess.

I found that the tweeters they produced in the Chinese plant varied a lot from tweeter to tweeter. QC was just not up to par for me.

I have since had some new tweeters custom built (different company) that I should be taking delivery of in about a month and a half.

It uses the same size face plate, but the face plate is much better made, and looks nicer too.

The response is even smoother. Fs is lower. QC should be much better as well.

It is the New GR-T2.

I have also had a 97db version of it built as well. It is the new GR-T6.

 

[Brian Tatnall]

I can honestly say that I have been amazed by the responses thus far. Thank you everyone. The decision making is much easier when I have so many peoples opinions and experiences in front of me.

Shawn,

Your future input is eagerly anticipated.

Dan,

I don't have you guys mixed up in my head. I think that happened when I started typing and copying and pasting. Your overall speaker awareness is the reason I asked you about the Usher and MBOWI kits even though they are Dennis' design. I figured that since you have a link to his webpage you have probably seen a few reviews of his work if not heard some of it yourself. I think I'll stay away from the Ushers. In the long run I will have a sub and I want to keep my eyes focused there even if I don¡¦t have complete sound for a few months. I figure I'll let the sub do its "job" which is below 80hz IMO. I listen to the recording studios: http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm The OWI has me tempted to say the least. Looking at multiple designers who use it the OWI, Dillion and Dennis, and then the FR. I'm still shocked by that.

Danny Richie,

I'm sorry I did not state my question more clearly. REVISED: Do you expect to make the AV-1+ with an M-130/16 so that it has an 8ohm load that is not a floorstanding speaker? In other words, will there be a bookshelf with two M-130/16s for those who are handicapped by space?

For some reason the site is down and I can¡¦t check that question right now. So if I'm being dimwitted just say so gently.

Demos in circulation??? How might I get my hands on these and how much of my budget will it suck up? Needless to say getting to do this would be humbling since I have two pair of paradigms one reference series and one cinema series.

Chris Tsutsui,

Thank you for the e-mail. I do not have time to fully reply altought I will do so tomorrow. Thank you. I await your review.

Brian Fellmeth,

That's it if one more Brian or Dan is added I'm not going to be able to keep track of this Thanks for the info about the center channel. I am a bit more worried about shielding than cosmetics. In addition, I have noticed that many companies add a speaker when dealing with the center channel to achieve an even flatter response.

Ah ha someone with the MBOW1's a short review or a link to one or something...please...those things are beautiful!!! Excellent job. I don't think I can accomplish that level of aesthetics. Do you think that the speakers are the best for music? I'll be listening to about 60/40 music movies.

Brian Bunge,

Yah, in an attempt to be honest and unbiased I will say: The Kit281 sacrifices midrange and treble quality per dollar in exchange for a lively sound with great lower midrange and bass quality. I honestly think the GR kits are a better value if you are not so concerned with dynamics or bass, unless you think the relatively forward and exciting sound of the Kit281 is worth paying for.

I'm more sold to the GR's. Especially being aware of the amp load and the higher price to build. I think that a well built subwoofer can satisfy my bass needs in a better way than trying to have my 2 way do it. Would anyone disagree? I've read the 281 kit review over 10 times now and it makes me thankful for people I can dialogue with instead of numbers and subjectivity without a context.

Finally, I'm always plagued by the "look what is coming next" posts whenever I decide I'm going to buy something.

Thanks again everyone.

Edit: don't copy directly from word it screws all the symbols up

 

[Danny Richie]

Demos in circulation??? How might I get my hands on these and how much of my budget will it suck up?

A/V-1's and A/V-1+'s are in circulation. Several pairs of Criterion's are also in circulation. It only cost you the shipping charges to the next person in line or in some cases back to GR Research.

Also see in home audition guidelines: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=1109

Ronnnie,

I got the web site problem taken care of. Just a little something I thought my web geek handled and he thought I handled.

Sorry for the late replies to todays e-mails too. Some will just have to wait until in the morning. I was gone all day today to Dallas to pick up all the new M-130/16 woofers that just arrived. They are now here and in stock! Woooo Hoooo!

 

[Brian Tatnall]

A/V-1's and A/V-1+'s are in circulation. It only cost you the shipping charges to the next person in line or in some cases back to GR Research.

How long is the wait on a pair of A/V1+'s?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Danny Richie]

How long is the wait on a pair of A/V1+'s?

Right now it is within two weeks. I even have one pair here that can be sent out.

What part of the country are you in?

 

[Brian Tatnall]

Danny,

The reason I keep on asking about the A/V1+ vs. A/V3 is that I want more bass extension, but I'm worried about my amp with the 4ohm load.

I have a Onkyo TXSR500 for a few months until I can afford a preamp. Do you think this amp can handel A/V1+'s all around?

I live about 30 minutes due west of Chicago.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Danny Richie]

Question for you Brian.

Do you or can you build your own enclosures?

The new A/V-3 will give you great low bass extension, will be an easy load on your amp, and takes up no more room than a stand mounted A/V-1+.

It is hard to say how well your Onkyo TXSR500 would handle a 4 ohm load. You would have to check your owners manual.

Most of the receivers out there will handle it fine with moderation. It is when you start cranking that volume knob that it makes it really tough on the receiver.

 

[Brian Tatnall]

Do you or can you build your own enclosures?

I am both able and willing . My plan from the beginning has been to build everything myself. What do you have in mind?

I checked the owner's manual on the TXSR500 and it isn't extremely specific. It says exactly what this link says...Here ...it has ** and I haven't been able to figure out what that means.

 

[Danny Richie]

I am both able and willing . My plan from the beginning has been to build everything myself. What do you have in mind?

Ah, then you can save a considerable amount of money building a kit.

For example: Our A/V-3 kit is what we have that is the closest to what you are asking for.

Our new A/V-3 kit is only $329. The Sonicap upgrade will be $85.

Enclosures will be $400. each. plus shipping.

A fully assembled pair will be $1,400. plus shipping.

You can build them and assemble them yourself for _______?

 

[Greg Monfort]

>I checked the owner's manual on the TXSR500 and it isn't extremely specific.
====
Seems they left out the asterisk definitions, but the fact that they even list a 4 and 3ohm! dynamic power rating tells me it has an above average power supply for such an inexpensive unit, so should have no problem driving a nominal 4ohm load to fairly loud levels if the A/Vs are reasonably efficient.

GM

 

[Anthony_Gomez]

you should be fine with 4 ohms as long as you are only driving a stereo load. Don't try 4 ohms with 5channels running

just my opinion.

 

[Brian Tatnall]

Greg,

That is what I thought about the 3ohm rating also, but I did notice the 3ohm rating is for the (front) only and so is the 4ohm rating. The all channel rating is 6ohm. Maybe I'll just risk it.

Danny,

I think I'm going to wait for the review from Chris comparing the 281 and A/V1+. I wouldn't mind being able to sample one of your kits either way though. What are the hours you can be called at? I couldn't find the info on your site.

 

[Michael R Price]

I want to hear a comparison too! I keep hearing all these things about the GR speakers, but nothing specifically comparing to something I'm familiar with. I don't think I'll be switching speakers, though... until someone comes up with a speaker as dynamic and full sounding as the 281 for $400.

 

[bruin]

I used to power my 3 AV1+s with an HK AVR320 and it would just get too hot and made me scared it would fry. For a month that I had this setup I used a fan to keep the heat level down.

I really think these speakers are better paired with a good amp. I upgraded to a Parasound 5 channel amp and it's made a difference in terms of dynamics and clarity.

However since an 8ohm version of the AV1+ is now available why not just get those?

 

[Danny Richie]

Good advice from Tony.

I want to hear a comparison too!

Ideally I like to get a group of you guys together in one area to send demo speakers out to. Then you guys can compare them to many different speakers, and shipping time and cost between you is kept to a minimal.