Got the lex mc-1 / getting rid of denon 4802 (1 Viewer)

[Ricky T]

Michael,
No worries mate....I'm sure Shawn Fogg will be here soon enough btw, are you leaning towards the Bryston or the Anthem?
John,
I only have one dd-ex dvd, Star Wars, and use the 5.1 Logic7 mode. You might even want to try the THX-Surround EX speaker setup (all speakers at 80hz), option #2 in the speaker setup menu. 2.9s above 80hz + SVS below 80hz = 3.3s
Since your samson subamp has only one volume setting and your MC1 has a separate subwoofer memory settings for each mode, shouldn't you just leave the samson setting alone, and use the MC1's saved settings? You "paid" for it, as other processors don't have this memory feature

 

[John Tompkins]

Michael, You will have to forgive me as I'm am not experienced with the unit as of yet and I will take your advice and look at the other forums. One thing is that I didnt get the designs and theory book, was I supposed to get this ?

{quote}

If your set a crossover on the mains, like 40Hz, all frequencies sent to the mains below 40Hz will be rolled off, and this includes the LFE channel that was rerouted.

It wont be sent to the lfe channel ?

{quote}

if you set the mains AND the sub to 40Hz, you WILL, most definitely, split the LFE channel between the mains and the sub.

It will be sent to sub ?

 

[Mifr44]

Ricky,

"No worries mate....I'm sure Shawn Fogg will be here soon enough btw, are you leaning towards the Bryston or the Anthem?"

Shawn's one of the best at explaining the Lexicon processors. Despite owning the MC-1 for 9 months, I still have some of the bass management issues wrong, I am sure.

I have tried the Anthem AVM-20 in our home and really liked it for our music audition. I could be quite satisfied with it as our processor. I am still trying to get a Bryston SP-1 to audition, but that has been more difficult. But it will come down to these two.

John,

{my post}"If your set a crossover on the mains, like 40Hz, all frequencies sent to the mains below 40Hz will be rolled off, and this includes the LFE channel that was rerouted."

{your post}"It wont be sent to the lfe channel ?"

My post is with respect to having NO subwoofer, as was mentioned by Ricky about Philip's post. So, nothing will get sent to the subout connection.

{my post}"if you set the mains AND the sub to 40Hz, you WILL, most definitely, split the LFE channel between the mains and the sub."

{your post}"It will be sent to sub ?"

In my example (mains and sub @ 40Hz crossover), the LFE above 40Hz will end up in the mains, and the LFE below 40Hz will end up in the sub.

Michael

 

[John Tompkins]

Michael, ok now I understand what you were saying, thanks.
LarryB, There isnt many things I didnt like about the denon 4802. One would be that base management is configured so that all speakers set to small have to be set to the same crossover. Another is that although the amps are good "receiver" amps they dont stack up to even an 400.00 sherwood am9080 amp . I wasnt using the amps anyway and I always felt that this was a waste. I would say the remote sucks but this wasnt an issue for me. As far as sonics go it was dam good, both for music and home theater..Pure direct mode for music is gonna be hard to beat, Can the mc-1 beat it for music ?? we shall see but I'm not counting on it. Lastly I must say that I have a BAD case of HT upgraditis cant hold onto anything for very long, as a matter of fact the people here at work are taking bets on how long the mc-1 will last

 

[Geo]

I've also recently sold my 4802 but for different reasons.
I was thinking of going to the MC-1/Sony TAP9000ES combo but decided I didn't want to give up component video switching and S-video upconversion. Also I'm very happy with DPLII and what it does for my 2 channel sources, like DTV, Laserdisc, etc...
Mainly i'm staying away from the MC-1 because I'm really getting into and enjoying multi-channel SACD and DVD Audio. I recently purchased the Sony TAP9000ES to see how it would integrate with my system(4802, etc..). The TAP that I received from Oade has a defect (humming at turn on) and even Oade Bros. is getting frustrated with the many problems their customers are having with this unit. I'm returning it to them and not asking for a replacement which they are hesitate to provide anyway. They are dealing with Sony directly to see what gives with this unit.
Anyway, I've moved my Sony DA5ES receiver, which I'm using as a pre/pro, into my main system so I can utilize it's 2 analog multi-channel inputs. This unit is not up to the Denon 4802 but will do fine until something else comes in.
That something else will probably be the Denon 5803

geo

 

[Shawn Fogg]

"No worries mate....I'm sure Shawn Fogg will be here soon enough "
OK.... I'm here.
I'm jumping in late though so I'm not really sure what the question is.
On reading the posts it looks like people are discussing several different configurations and getting them a little mixed up which I think is where a lot of the confusion is coming from.
What can I do to hopefully help, and not cause more, confusion?
Shawn

 

[Mifr44]

Shawn,
In my attempt to give what I feel is my main concern with the Lexicon MC-1, mainly the 40Hz crossover for the mains and subwoofer (which I commented on in post #4 of this thread), I believe I have provided some confusing information. Of course, having read several of my posts on SMR, this should not come as a surprise to you!
Anyway, I don't think that the bass management in the MC-1 is all that difficult except for the forementioned 40Hz crossover (and the potential for a split of the LFE channel), bass enhance, a subwoofer crossover, center bass split, PCM/analog vs. AC3/DTS bass management...on second thought, maybe it is!
I think what is needed here is how the bass management in the MC-1 differs between AC3/DTS and PCM/analog, what happens to any present LFE channel given the crossovers, and how the crossovers affect the routing of the low bass. Bass enhance is an entire subject on its own.
Michael

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Michael,

"I think what is needed here is how the bass management in the MC-1 differs between AC3/DTS and PCM/analog, what happens to any present LFE channel given the crossovers, and how the crossovers affect the routing of the low bass."

OK... going from memory since I don't have the MC-1 anymore to test this on....

Let's start with PCM.

The sub out will reproduce bass below its set crossover point. The subwoofers crossover has no effect on what bass will or will not be reproduced by the other channels.

That is what the high pass crossovers handle.

At the same time main channels with higher crossover points bass will be redirected to channels with lower crossover points.

That is basically it. As you can see depending upon how the crossovers are setup you can create a situation where bass is lost or a situation where bass is duplicated between the main speakers and the sub. Some people like the bass punch of duplicated bass, some don't. To avoid duplicated bass you need to either be sure your lowest main channel crossover is the same frequency as the sub crossover or have 'large' speakers (on any channel) and in all PCM Effects go into the output levels setting and turn the subwoofers level to -80.

DD/DTS is a little more complex and I'm not 100% sure on this now since I haven't tested it in a long time.

Talking about the sub I mean just the sub out itself, LFE is the LFE channel information, redirected bass is main channel bass.

The sub out will receive any LFE below the set crossover point. The LFE information above that point will be redirected to the mains.

Main channel bass will be redirected to the channels with a lower crossover point. Below the lowest crossover it goes to sub.

Again you can have missing bass in a incorrectly setup system.

I don't know believe Bass Enhance changes the 'rules' of bass routing. It just applies a phase shift to the bass content in the channels with the lowest crossover point.

When I had my MC-1 my system was configured as follows:

L/R - 80hz

C -120hz

sides - 40hz

rears - 120hz

sub - 40hz

My side outputs when to an external crossover which configured for 80hz crossover. The low pass fed a pair of ACI Titan's located at the sides of the room for Bass Enhance, high pass went to my side speakers. The sub out went to my Quantum Sound ContraBass.

The ACI Titan's received one octave of bass... 40-80hz. The ContraBass received anything below 40hz... on PCM or DD/DTS.

This setup didn't loose any bass nor did it duplicate any bass on any material.

The potential downside was that the LFE above 40hz went to the ACI Titan's which don't have the output ability of the ContraBass. If I wanted to avoid that downside I could have set sides 'LARGE' and sub to 80hz then in all 2 channel effects turn sub (which is the sub out) to -80. This would have avoided duplication and let all PCM bass be handled by the Titan's. The ContraBass would then be reproducting the majority of the LFE and would have greater output ability. T

The downside with that configuration was the Titan's can't go as low as the ContraBass (-3dB@14hz). I've got hundreds of PCM LDs and I just didn't get the same impact with the bass just going to the Titan's. By setting the sides to 40hz (which in effect made the Titan's bandpassed 40-80hz) and setting the sub out to 40hz (and having sub level at 0 in all PCM channel modes) the ContraBass was active for the bottom octave of the material. This gave me the deep impact for all my sources.

On re-reading this if anyone followed this through all the way I'll be impressed.

It is worth noting that the bass management (and Bass Enhance) of the MC-12 is different then on the DC-1,DC-2 and MC-1.

Shawn

 

[Ricky T]

Shawn,

Thanks for the write-up, I followed most of it. Probably would have been a little easier if you used "Sub" instead of Contrabass and "side subs" instead of Titans.

If JohnT set his mains to 40hz and all other speakers/subs to 80hz, his subs reproduce the LFE below 80hz and his mains above 80hz....right?

If someone had a setup without a sub, but set mains and sides to Large, would the LFE be divided into the four speakers?

Michael,

One part of out discussion was apples and oranges, as I realize I did not really contemplated using 40hz on the sub.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Ricky,

"If JohnT set his mains to 40hz and all other speakers/subs to 80hz, his subs reproduce the LFE below 80hz and his mains above 80hz....right? "

Yes, the subs reproduce the LFE channel below 80hz. Above that it goes to the mains.

Note that in that configuration on PCM material you will duplicate bass between 40-80hz in the mains and the sub(s).

"If someone had a setup without a sub, but set mains and sides to Large, would the LFE be divided into the four speakers? "

Not sure I never tried that. Easy enough to test it though if you have a DD test disc with LFE test tones.

Shawn

 

[Ricky T]

Shawn,

Do you know who makes the LX5/LX7 amps for Lexicon?

Are DSS and DVDs considered PCM? I question DVDs as PCM because 2.0 LDs sound better than 2.0 DVDs because LDs are PCM...and therefore, DVDs are not? I know that the PCM duplication exists in stereo for sure; would it also exist in Logic7?

 

[John Tompkins]

RickyT, My dealer said he would give me a killer deal on a lexicon 2 channel and 5 channel amps that hes getting rid of to replace with the new models..He said they were made by Bryston..Dont know any other details
Shawn, thanks for the info. I dont mind doubling my bass from 40~80 on pcm material as I prefer more bass anyway.
Does anybody change their logic 7 parameters are leave them flat ? azimuth etc.
Well, I hooked up everything and calibrated yesterday {2 1/2 hrs} AFTER this I noticed that the rotary volume knob was screwed up, skipping around, stuttering. Well I called my dealer and he said he had another one so I went and picked it up. This unit had no problems. It cost me about three hours and alot of cussing:frowning: but thats all.
The only thing I had time for was too watch a couple of hours of regular DSS viewing {king of the hill, futurama and a little bit of hocus pocus on hbo}. I will say that if the logic 7 for DSS is an indication of this unit that I will be EXTREMLY happy. Man the difference between plI and dplII was great but the difference between dplII and logic 7 was even greater !! for dss anyway. I couldnt believe what I was hearing from my dish, it sounded as good as some dd movies that I have rented. Lively, seperated, details and made my ears sit and take notice..very nice. I much prefer logic7 over dplII on DSS sources....More to come.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Ricky,

"Do you know who makes the LX5/LX7 amps for Lexicon? "

Lexicon designed them and Crown Audio, recently aquired by Harman International, builds them. Previous Lexicon amps were rebadged Brystons.

"Are DSS and DVDs considered PCM?"

Depends upon what is transmitted. They can be straight PCM or they can be Dolby Digital (or DTS).

"I question DVDs as PCM because 2.0 LDs sound better than 2.0 DVDs because LDs are PCM...and therefore, DVDs are not?"

Well technically after Dolby Digital/DTS is decoded it is all PCM. But in this case we are talking about the format input into the Lex.

LDs can be PCM, analog only (which is converted to PCM in the Lex by the analog to digital converters) or DD/DTS depending upon the player and the LD in question.

"I know that the PCM duplication exists in stereo for sure; would it also exist in Logic7? "

Yes. To avoid this your subs low pass should be set to the same frequency as the lowest high pass crossover you set. The exception is if you use large speakers (anywhere) and then turn off the sub in all PCM effects.

Shawn

 

[Shawn Fogg]

John,

"I dont mind doubling my bass from 40~80 on pcm material as I prefer more bass anyway. "

Go with what you prefer as long as you understand what is occuring.

"Does anybody change their logic 7 parameters are leave them flat ? azimuth etc. "

Most Lex owners I've talked to adjust the parameters, esp. for music. They allow you to better tweak the sound to your tastes. I certainly do.

"I will say that if the logic 7 for DSS is an indication of this unit that I will be EXTREMLY happy."

It is a good indication, just wait until you get more time listening to the unit.

Have fun,

Shawn

 

[Jeff H]

This is a great thread. Shawn, as a recent DC2 owner, can you please help and comment on my setup. I am sure you are not familiar with my speakers, but I wouldn't think about getting rid of them. I have a Polk CS1000 center with powered subs built in. (45 hz -3 db) Polk Rta15tl's for mains (26 hz -3 db) Polk RTA-11t's for side and rears. (29hz -3db) Sunfire True Sub MKII for LFE and 2 Polk RT3000 subs for the side bass enhance. I currently have the mains crossed at 40 HZ, the rears at 40HZ, the center at 80 HZ and the side set to large. What would you recommend? Also, do people use bass enhance for DD/DTS programs? Thanks for contributing to the thread.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Jeff,

First off you should change your center to 120hz. This gives Bass Enhance more material to work with. Trying to reproduce bass from the center channel, which is usually located in the center of the room, will cause greater cancelation problems do to your side walls being equal distances from the bass source. Since it is also in a center line to your ears it contributes even more to the bass 'in your head' effect that Bass Enhance tries to get rid off.

How is the sub out configured? To avoid bass duplication in your 2 channel modes you should have the Sub set to -80.

"and 2 Polk RT3000 subs for the side bass enhance."

I assume these are fed from the side outputs?

"Also, do people use bass enhance for DD/DTS programs?"

Some do, some don't. Totally up to you if you like the effect or not.

Shawn

 

[Jeff H]

Shawn, thanks for your input. I do have the Polk subs using the side outputs.

"How is the sub out configured? To avoid bass duplication in your 2 channel modes you should have the Sub set to -80."

Sorry, I didn't say my sub (LFE) stting. I have it crossed over at 40 HZ. My mains are set at 40hz. I shouldn't get bass duplication in 2 channel with this set up, should I?

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Jeff,

" My mains are set at 40hz. I shouldn't get bass duplication in 2 channel with this set up, should I? "

Yes you will below 40hz.

From what I posted earlier:

"The sub out will reproduce bass below its set crossover point. The subwoofers crossover has no effect on what bass will or will not be reproduced by the other channels.

That is what the high pass crossovers handle.

At the same time main channels with higher crossover points bass will be redirected to channels with lower crossover points. "

Because your sides are set to LARGE they get the full range signal. Your sub out (Sunfire) will also get bass below 40hz. This will give you duplication. In this case the frequency is low enough that it might not be very noticable on most music but could add impact on PCM movies with a lot of low bass.

The LFE channel on DD/DTS sources will be split between your Sunfire and your mains (and possibly your sides).

If it was me I'd try the Sub crossover at 80 or 120hz and leave the rest of the crossovers alone. Then in 'Effect Adjust' for all 2 channel modes I'd go into the Output Levels menu and turn the SUB output as far down as it goes. This will basically dedicate your Sunfire to just handling the LFE channel on DD/DTS sources. The Sunfire would handle the full info on that channel (no split between others) and thee subs running off the side outputs would handle main channel redirected bass.

This will also let you turn up the LFE channel if you wanted more impact on DD/DTS without throwing the system out of whack and being too bass heavy on music.

BTW, since you recently got the DC-2 how do you like it?

Shawn

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

Shawn...
I'm curious as to what spks you were using with the Lexiocn set-up, and were they set-up as large or small?

 

[Peter Mansell]

For what it's worth this configuration sounds best to me with my setup -
Mains - Thiel CS2.2 - 80Hz
Centre - Thiel SCS2 - 120Hz
Sides - Thiel SCS2 + Shiva Sonosubs - Large
Rears - Energy Take 2 - 120Hz
LFE Subs - Shiva Sonosub x 2 - 80Hz
However this is on a lowly DC-1 V4.
But I'm happy.