Got the lex mc-1 / getting rid of denon 4802

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by John Tompkins, Mar 6, 2002.

  1. John Tompkins

    John Tompkins Supporting Actor

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    Well, I decided to get the lex mc-1 !! will post comments after I get a chance to play with..
    In the meantime there's a denon 4802 for sale cheap in hardware for sale section [​IMG] cheap advertisement[​IMG]
     
  2. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    John,

    Congrats! The MC1 should please you for a very long time. Remember to cross your center at 120hz, and rears/sides at 80hz.

    For your critical 2 channel, try the NHT 2.9s at 40hz...perfect point to integrate your svs subs. And you can set the independent subwoofer setting (just for the 2 channel mode) to your liking. Your 2.9s are 11 and 13 feet away from you? The Lex allows distance settings to the nearest ~ 0.3 feet for each speaker.

    Ricky
     
  3. AVspec

    AVspec Supporting Actor

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    So how much was the MC-1????
     
  4. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    "For your critical 2 channel, try the NHT 2.9s at 40hz...perfect point to integrate your svs subs. And you can set the independent subwoofer setting (just for the 2 channel mode) to your liking."

    Just be careful if you set the mains to 40Hz for music and leave it there for movies. The crossover setup in the MC-1 works a little differently than most processors. Not only will the main's bass (and rerouted center bass) be crossed over at 40Hz but so will any present LFE channel in the source. This means that a lot of the LFE channel will end up in the mains and not the subwoofer. Given that the LFE channel can have up to 10dB more dynamic range than the other channels, this can put a strain on all but the beefiest mains.

    Michael
     
  5. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Michael,

    The Lexicon literature states for Logic7 (and a couple of other sound modes), the bass from the center is redirected to the side speakers, not mains. I thought the LFE is only directed to the sub and speakers set to Large?

    Are you familiar with NHT 2.9s? 4 way towers with side-firing 10inch woofers that spec -3dB at 26hz. 108dB at 40hz is ok IMO (if part of the LFE is sent to it). The internal crossover between the 10inch woofer and the "top" of the speaker is 100hz. If JohnT chooses 80hz, then his woofer would only be producing the 80-100hz range. Maybe your comment is for John NOT to set his 2.9s to Large?
     
  6. Gene Lockaby

    Gene Lockaby Extra

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    John - Congratulations! - both on a decision made, and on an excellent decision at that. I promise, as a dyed in the wool Lexicon owner, you will be very happy with your choice.

    Why? Because it is a very informed choice. You looked hard at everything and weighed them carefully and pulled the trigger. You made a great call.

    The MC-1 has enormous flexibiity, very pure sonics, and the incomparable Logic 7.

    Of course the important thing is if it is a good marriage with your system - if it makes you happy. Keep us posted on how that aspect progresses.

    Regards - Gene
     
  7. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    Ricky,

    "The Lexicon literature states for Logic7 (and a couple of other sound modes), the bass from the center is redirected to the side speakers, not mains."

    This is only true when using the Bass Enhance feature and even then this is subject to the crossover selections. Without Bass Enhance engaged, the bass below the center's crossover is routed to the mains. Any bass below the main's crossover (which can include the center's bass) is routed to the sub.

    "I thought the LFE is only directed to the sub and speakers set to Large?'

    Just so we are speaking the same language, when I say LFE, I am talking about the discrete .1 channel in DD5.1 (and others like DTS). And no, the LFE will only show up in the mains or the subwoofer.

    "Maybe your comment is for John NOT to set his 2.9s to Large?"

    Actually, if John sets his mains to "large" and sub to "yes", then the subwoofer will get the entire LFE channel. A crossover of 40Hz or 80Hz for the mains will cause a split in the LFE channel.

    Michael
     
  8. John Tompkins

    John Tompkins Supporting Actor

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    Mark, I paid a little bit more then I could have from the net as I purchased it from my local dealer for 2250.00 still a fair price and it is mint and warrantied.

    Gene, Thanks a lot for the kind words. I did do alot of looking around and decided that the mc-1 was for me. I cant think of another processor at its price that would outperform it on HT. The music part will be taken care of down the road when I add the sony ta-p9000 for sacd and dvd-audio.

    Ricky, thanks for the nudge and I've ALREADY sold the denon 4802!

    Michael and Ricky, I've been busy boxing up the 4802 as such haven't even had a chance to glance at the manual. I must admit that I'm a bit confused at the base management options you'll were talking about. Wouldn't you want to engage the bass enhance feature ? also I do want the 2.9 to go to 40 hz, I hope this isnt a problem. I would just set them to small with a 40 hz crossover, correct ?? set sub to yes with 80~100hz crossover and center/rears to 80hz~100 thanks again
     
  9. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    John,

    "Wouldn't you want to engage the bass enhance feature ?"

    Maybe, but you will need either side speakers that have good bass extention (by most accounts, to at least 40Hz), or a pair of subwoofers connected to the sides. If you have small sides, set to either 80Hz or 120Hz, then the Bass Enhance feature won't help you much if at all. And for some people, Bass Enhance works well, and for others, not so well.

    "also I do want the 2.9 to go to 40 hz, I hope this isnt a problem."

    So long as you understand what the bass management in the MC-1 will do to any present LFE channel, as I mentioned before.

    "I would just set them to small with a 40 hz crossover, correct ?? set sub to yes with 80~100hz crossover and center/rears to 80hz~100"

    The crossover options in the MC-1 are 40Hz, 80Hz and 120Hz for "small" speakers. If the mains are set to 40Hz and the sub set to 80Hz, then you will have doubled up bass in the 40Hz to 80Hz range for PCM/analog sources (and maybe for DD and DTS sources, I don't recall).

    Michael
     
  10. John Tompkins

    John Tompkins Supporting Actor

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    Michael,
    Well it looks like the first thing I need to do is get two more svs subs for the side[​IMG] as I already have two for lfe.
    I certainly dont want to double up 40~80hz so the question would be do I want the svs subs are the 2.9's doing the 40~80 hz. For music I would want the 2.9's but for movies, Hmm not sure
     
  11. AVspec

    AVspec Supporting Actor

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    That is a great price John! What DSP modes does it have? Like DTS-ES by chance?
     
  12. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Michael,
    So the sub channel is duplicative for PCM sources. Only CDs and LDs are PCM right? And DVDs and DSS are not, therefore would not have any duplication at any frequency? If so, JohnT can set his 2.9s to either Large (or 40hz) and turn-down the subwoofer setting for 2 channel to his liking (even all the way down...in effect, turning them off, regardless of the sub lowpass setting).
    The center bass redirection to the sides doesn't specify that Bass Enhance must be engaged. Just mentions for Logic 7 and Music Logic. Are you sure?
    JohnT,
    I knew the denon would sell very quickly at that generous price [​IMG] And it seems you have two ways to tweak/increase your 2 channel PCM bass: the subwoofer setting and the Lexicon bass equalizer.
     
  13. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    Ricky,

    "The center bass redirection to the sides doesn't specify that Bass Enhance must be engaged. Just mentions for Logic 7 and Music Logic. Are you sure?"

    Yes, I am sure. I am taking my information from the MC-1 Owner's manual, page 24. Where are you getting your information from?

    "So the sub channel is duplicative for PCM sources. Only CDs and LDs are PCM right? And DVDs and DSS are not therefore would not have any duplication at any frequency?"

    That's correct, the sub channel receives a summed L+R signal for PCM sources. A PCM signal depends on the source material being played. There are some DVDs with PCM tracks, as well as some LDs having Dolby Digital tracks.

    Michael
     
  14. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Michael,

    On page 24, it says that by setting the center to SMALL...."this will automatically engage the Bass Split feature which takes the low frequency content from the center, and distributes it to the left and right front speakers...."

    In the Theory and Design brochure, page 8, Bass Split Operation for the Center Speaker...."The Music Logic, Logic7, and TVMatrix algorithms deal with a small center speaker differently than the other matrix effects......split these low frequencies (from the center) between all the side speakers..."

    Inside the quotes, I typed word for word from the Lexicon literature. There is NO mention of Bass Enhance in both of these sections. Bass Split is a term for bass redirection, and NOT the Bass Enhance feature/algorithm.

    As for AC3 and DTS playback, I have never heard of any processor that duplicates (non-LFE) between the mains and sub, no matter what the frequency settings. If you set the mains' highpass at 40hz, and sub's low pass at 80hz, then everything below 40hz gets redirected from the mains to the sub with no overlap/duplication. On the contrary, if the mains are @ 80hz and sub @ 40hz, then you'd "lose" the mains' signals between 40 and 80hz...but again, no duplication.

    I agree that the Lex, like Marantz and Denon, does send a duplicate signal to the subwoofer in 2 channel stereo for PCM sources. But only for 2 channel. For DPL, Logic7, DTS, AC3...the processing does not duplicate any non-LFE signals.

    For LFE, I think the Lex will split/divide the LFE signal to the sub and all speakers set to LARGE (not SMALL and 40hz).
     
  15. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    Ricky,

    I read the Theory and Design document and it does indeed mention the routing of the center bass to the sides for Music Logic, Logic 7 and TV Matrix.

    You may be right about the [email protected] and [email protected] with regards to AC3 and DTS sources.

    "For LFE, I think the Lex will split/divide the LFE signal to the sub and all speakers set to LARGE (not SMALL and 40hz)"

    Nope. The LFE will only go to the sub and/or the mains.

    Michael
     
  16. SteveLauterbach

    SteveLauterbach Auditioning

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    This is my first post on this forum and I was considering a new thread, but thought since some one was talking about the Lexicon MC-1 I'd put it here. I have been considering purchasing a MC-1 and replacing my Yamaha DSP-A1. Has anyone had the experience with the Lexicon and Bipole speakers? I have Definitive Tech BP 2000 for the mains, CLR 3000 for my center and BP 10's for the rear surrounds. I know that I'd need a pair of side speakers to utilize the 7.1 Logic and THX EX, etc... I'd thought I might go ahead and use Def Tech's BPX surrounds for the sides. My question is how does the Lexicon's surrounds preform with a bipolar speaker? Would I be better off with a point source type speaker or even THX certified? I'm aware of all the quibble about THX speakers and the like in case anyone was wanting to point that out. Any input would be appreciated.
     
  17. John Tompkins

    John Tompkins Supporting Actor

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    Wow, I'm a bit confused on this base management. I assumed that if I set the 2.9's to small with a 40hz crossover That only anthing recorded on the l/r channel source along with maybe the center bass would be sent to the l/r from 40 hz and up ? not any lfe bass .

    My question would be if I set my 2.9s to 40 hz, center 120 and rears at 80 hz...then what would I set my svs lfe subs too? 40, 80 or 120 hz ?

    Also what mode do you guys listen to dd thx ex movies like star wars TPM in,logic 7 or thx surround ex ?
     
  18. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Michael,
    Phillip Brandes wrote this in an AVS thread (which you also posted in!):
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=lexicon
    "Hi Ricky,
    As I recall, the bass management algorithm on the MC-1 routed LFE to the front speakers if no sub was present. If you apply a crossover to your fronts, there is nowhere for the LFE below the crossover to go."
    Would this mean that any speaker that you apply a crossover (ie, 40/80/120hz) would NOT get an LFE signal? And Sanjay said if mains are set to Large and sub to Yes, then the LFE will be split between the two. Therefore, if John sets his 2.9s to 40hz, they will not get any LFE (according to what Phillip and Sanjay wrote).
    JohnT,
    I think you should set:
    2.9s to 40hz
    center/rear/sides to 80hz
    subs to 80hz
    You will only get duplication in 2 channel stereo for PCM sources (ie, your cds). 2.9s will reproduce everything above 40hz, and sub will get a duplicate signal below 80hz. There is duplication between 40 and 80hz. Just adjust the sub channel until you like the sound. All other modes, you will be fine, with the LFE going only to your subs (unless I'm wrong from above). Other 2 channel options are:
    1) set 2.9s to 80hz (no dup, subs take over under 80hz)
    2) 2.9s to Large, turn sub level all the way down for 2 channel---only 2.9s are "ON" for 2 channel, but then would share LFE with subs for AC3/DTS.
     
  19. John Tompkins

    John Tompkins Supporting Actor

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    Ricky, I like the first option you mentioned. I want the 2.9s to 40hz and since my sampson 1000 sub amp has volume knobs on front I will just turn them to my liking on Music..This way I can leave the crossovers the same for everything.

    What do you listen to star wars type movies that are recorded on thx ex, do you use logic 7 or thx surround ?
     
  20. Michael Mohrmann

    Michael Mohrmann Screenwriter

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    Ricky and John,

    Maybe the two of you should post over at the SMR Forum and ask your questions there. It is apparent that I am not getting my initial point across, which is this: if you set the mains AND the sub to 40Hz, you WILL, most definitely, split the LFE channel between the mains and the sub.

    As far as Philip's comment is concerned, please reread it. It states that in leiu of NO sub, the LFE channel will be sent completely to the mains. If your set a crossover on the mains, like 40Hz, all frequencies sent to the mains below 40Hz will be rolled off, and this includes the LFE channel that was rerouted.

    Sanjay's comment is wrong, as far as the MC-1 is concerned. If the mains are set to large and the sub is active, the LFE channel will be sent in total to the sub. None of the LFE channel will be sent to the mains.

    I will reiterate my suggestion to head on over to the SMR Forum (or at least the AVS Forum) and ask Philip, Sanjay, and Shawn Fogg these questions. They are far more experienced with Lexicon processors than I am.

    Michael
     

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