Got our calibration disc. Now I'm really confused. Help

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Wesley S, Mar 5, 2003.

  1. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    Our Sound and Video disc came today and I've been listening to the people in the calibration portion explain what the settings for each are.

    First off I really don't understand the blooming portion. They show what it's doing during while explaining but when it gets to the correct setting during the example it immediately cuts off so I really can't get a good look as to what it's supposed to look like.

    Also the color and tint settings are hard to understand using the blue filter. I know they are supposed to be the same brightness and somewhat disappear into the background but no matter where it's set for color or tint and I can't get the saturation to nearly disappear. The hue I can "just" about get to disappear.

    The sharpness setting I can get exactly what they are showing and it's set at 43 when everything lines up and the bars across the top and bottom are equal in whiteness.

    Now the brightness I'm a little worried about. It says when the brightness setting is correct the left bar disappears into the black and the right bar you can barely see. This happens when brightness is set to 93. Anything lower they both disappear and anything higher they both reappear.

    The contrast is set to 38 at the moment but I'm still not sure how to read that calibration part of it.

    Need some help fellas [​IMG]
     
  2. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    Is there a possibility that this TV is just defective?
     
  3. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    I'll find out tomorrow. Best Buy is sending a local technician out to look at it tomorrow at 10:30. I didn't want to bring that possibility up till after using the disc, but I'm beginning to believe so. Don't want to think so but it's starting to lean that way [​IMG]

    I had a couple of other threads discussing the situation but really wanted to wait till I got the disc. I'm glad I got it today before the tech came though. At least I can show him and maybe he can guide me a little more.
     
  4. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    There is something seriously wrong with that set. Light output levels are way off. I think you might want to try another.
     
  5. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    I doubt it,

    Start in movie mode. DO NOT TURN THE CONTRAST DOWN. Now adjust the black level. At what setting is it correct? Perhaps you need to go up a little on the contrast.

    Once you get Contrast and brightness correct, then move onto color, then tint.

    Best of luck,

    Gregg
     
  6. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    Sorry guys my net goes down at night. I'm lucky to be on right now. Anyway

    I actually watched the WHOLE disc and did as they said. Put the tv in movie mode which also has a preset "warm" color temperature and went from there.

    First off the picture looks wonderful and that disc does make all the difference. Now for the bad part. I still don't understand what blooming is and how to actually read the bars that are supposed to "bleed" into each other on the contrast portion of the disc. That said I'm not sure the whole calibration is correct since everything afterwards is based on contrast but it does look much much better EXCEPT for the bottom 6" of the screen. Anything that falls in this portion of the screen is still blurry. Anything above is still a "little" bit out of focus but NO WHERE near what it was. The reason I say the bottom portion of the screen is out of focus is when looking at the main menu of the calibration screen especially where is says (Previous Menu - Main Menu) any letter with an open space like P - E - O - A looks double lettered. Like there is a shadowing effect going on except it's blurry. This makes me wonder if something is wrong with the set. Everything else looks good, not perfect but much better.

    Right now we are using a WARM color temerature and settings are as follows

    Contrast 36
    Brightness 85
    Sharpness 38
    Color 44
    Tint +33

    I still think the brightness is too high (going by what you guys say it should be around) but the picture does look wonderful. At least to what we think and definitely better than before. I've went through the brightness portion of the disc several times and if I go any lower it makes both bars disappear.

    So what do you think?
     
  7. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    A couple things not mentioned yet in this thread that might help some/all of your issues.

    What is your lighting environment when you do this calibration? If the room is very brightly lit, that might cause you to run the brightness/black level higher than otherwise. Of course, that probably would affect your contrast/white level setting too. Make sure to set your lighting environment to what you really want for watching the TV.

    RE: the blurriness issues, you might need to do your convergence to correct that. The basic calibration done w/ these setup discs don't usually go into convergence setup. If you haven't done it already, that might very well be the problem. You should at least do the basic convergence available in the user level menu.

    If the basic convergence setup helps, but some small parts of the picture is still blurry, you might need to do a full convergence via the service menu although this can be a bit daunting for a newbie. The problem could also be the CRT guns being out-of-focus and need some refocusing. Like the service menu convergence, this can also be daunting and probably not advisable to do on your own unless you're the tweaking type and have gained a better understanding of how the TV works. For these things, you're probably best off hiring an ISF tech to do a full calibration for you.

    Btw, ideally, you should let the TV warm up for at least 30-45min before doing calibrations, especially convergence adjustments.

    _Man_

    PS: RE: contrast/white level setting and blooming, you do not really want to set your TV to the point of blooming. You should set it to the point where white looks barely white enough w/out any blooming. The point of blooming and the point where white looks white enough could be very different--your TV might not even bloom at 100% contrast. If you set contrast higher than necessary, it'll wear out the TV phosphors faster than necessary.
     
  8. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks Man-Fai Wong


    Well the final calibration was done in a completely dark room just to make sure we weren't just "seeing" this blurriness. Then just like at night we have one table lamp on for room lighting we turned on after calibration and everything looked good.

    About this convergence? Where is this in the user level menu? I haven't seen anything like this.

    As of now I have the service menu set to what it was coming from the warehouse because I don't understand what all does and don't want to risk messing anything up.

    As far as an ISF calibration goes. I'm not trying to be nitpicky with our picture. There is a significant blurry area on the bottom part of our screen that is very noticable compared to anywhere else. Even if this were the case I'd retun the set for a new one before I spend that kind of money. Not trying to sound harsh I just think the picture should at least look really good after a calibration disc run through, not super duper excellent but a picture where an ordinary tv viewer comes in and says "Wow thats a great looking picture"

    So whats this convergence and what should I do if it's in the basic config part of the menu?
     
  9. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Hmmm... I took a quick look at your previous thread and see that you have the Tosh 36AF42. Sounds like maybe that set doesn't have user level convergence adjustment. I have an older Tosh direct-view, and that doesn't have it either--seems most direct-views don't have this since it's usually not as big an issue as w/ RPTVs. I guess you should just wait for the service tech to fix this for you OR just get it exchanged.

    _Man_
     
  10. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    We'll I'm definitely going to wait till he takes a look before exchanging. He's coming in the morning. Like I said the picture overall looks great by "our" standards except the bottom portion of the screen (the 6").

    I'm a bit concerned by the brightness level but even my dad was raving on how the background isn't dark anymore, the people have more color, and overall it was a super improvement just still a "bit" fuzzy. Probably could fix that with a bit more tweaking. Hopefully the tech in the morning can run through the disc with me and at least show me what the contrast portion of the calibration is supposed to be with the test image.

    I'll ask him about the convergence if he doesn't bring it up first.

    Thanks

    If anyone else has an idea please feel free.
     
  11. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    FINALLY the tv is right.

    Tech said that the voltage was off. He said that there is a top and bottom voltage adjustment and once he moved it the picture cleared right up. I assuming now I can turn the contrast a bit up and the brightness a bit down. I asked him about the blooming effect as the disc mentioned but I don't think he knew too much about that [​IMG]

    So my question now is at what point is the contrast guide image the correct one? I know if you turn it up it gets really white and if you turn it down it gets dark. The review says that you are supposed to set it when the white bleeds into the lower gray blocks. I really haven't seen this effect yet or I just don't understand it. I think once I have that set correctly everything will fall into place.
     
  12. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    One other thing I did notice is I re ran the calibration disc and everything is pretty much the same EXCEPT I now had to turn the brightness up more to see the one bar. I was at 85 and you have to turn it up to 95 see the one bar. Only at 100 can you see both. Any ideas here?
     
  13. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    I still say there is something wrong with this set. Did you reset back to the factory BRTC value or is it currently 2-3 clicks higher as you earlier posted? Gregg and others may well have come across individual sets with behavior such as this but I've never seen a set that responded to the brightness adjustment bars with this high a value. The scale tops out at 100.

    Clearly part of the original complaint of too dark a picture is likely related to the very low Contrast levels you mentioned. Lowering Contrast substantially will always darken any picture. I agree with Gregg...use the Movie Mode to start. This will set everything at 50%...then run the S&V and make appropriate changes from there. Come back with the results. If you have already followed this exact advice and still have the situation you just described then the light output of this set is not right. Post the current settings here.
     
  14. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Wesley,

    Excuse me for dropping in on this one. Not trying to thread-jack, but I need some help and problem seems kinda similar...

    One of the guys here at work has a Tosh 56H80. This thing has gotten so dark that it's unwatchable. He doesn't have the fuzzy issue, just dark. Set has gotten darker over last 2 years, then got really dark. He has not used AVIA or any other calibration disc. He felt he didn't need to...until the darkness came. Tosh sent a local tech out and simply said that these sets get darker over time and bumped his brightness up 5 notches and contrast up 11 notches.
    Before: brightness was 49, now 51
    contrast was 35, now 46
    However, when he got home the set was still too dark. Raising brightness to 80 gets the darks dealt with, but then everything looks washed out. When he tells me it's dark, he means real! dark. i.e.-"My Cousin Vinnie" courtroom scene...Mona walks in through people seated and she's wearing a dark purple dress. With brightness set to 51 no one in the gallery (seated people) can be seen at all. They are in blackness. Mona's dress is pitch black, no color. As brightness is raised, the people become visible.

    Questions:
    1.-Do these sets "get darker" over time? Very dark?
    2.-Should brightness have to be set at 80-90+ for good picture?
    3.-Will there be burn in/phosphor issues to deal with down the road at these settings?
    4.-If at 2 years, he has had to double the brightness, what about next year if this progresses? Scale only goes to 100. Doesn't leave much room for further adjustments.

    Again, sorry to butt in. i didn't want to start a separate thread with such seemingly similar conditions.

    Thanks for all help,
    Michael
     
  15. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    RPTVs will lose as much as half of their light-output capability within a year or so. This is normal. The CRTs will output at this lower level for the bulk of their remaining useful lifetimes. When they reach the terminal stage several years down the pike, their performance drops off severely.

    However, the black level should never have to be set at the 80-percent level or higher.
     
  16. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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  17. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Jack,

    Ok, the set will darken over first year. Fine. However, it sounds like it should not go so dark to neccessitate brightness having to be set at 80-90%. My co-worker's set has been fine until very recently. Yes, he said it has darkened some over the last 2 years. However, over the last couple of days, it darkened drastically. No one in the background of a movie/show can be seena at all unless brightness is run way up. Again, everything looks super washed out then.

    So, if we can conclude that there is "something" wrong...what could it be? What part/parts are responsible for light output? Dave (the guy who owns the tv) has a sister who works for Tosh at a national level. She got Tosh to ok/no charge any repairs needed under warranty...up to and including a new rptv if this can't be fixed. The tech that came out to his house just said "that's life" and notched up the brightness. What should Dave look for to be repaired on his set.

    Thanks again,
    Michael

    p.s.-Jack, are you the admin I met at Stone Brewery w/Zen and Ron when I came over from Phoenix a few months back? If so, hope you're doing well. Was great to meet you/drink beers!
     
  18. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    Wes,

    Okay, starting with Movie Mode (50%+Warm) and calibrating you currently have:

    Contrast 36
    Brightness 85
    Sharpness 38
    Color 44
    Tint +33

    You say after the tech came you now have to raise(?) Brightness from 85->93 to see only one bar . You don't raise Brightness to see the one bar...you lower it. You would only raise Brightness if you cannot first see the two bars with your current setting...and then lower it to make the one bar adjustment. I'm assuming this is a terminology glitch.

    Do me a favor...try both of these: take the BRTC back to factory setting (I know...darker picture...it seems like a waste of time...humor me) and calibrate again using Movie Mode noting the user settings and any problems; then take BRTC all the way to the shift point (the screen will darken and you go back one click to maximum Brightness) and calibrate again noting the user settings, etc. Note also how many clicks you need to go from minimum and maximum with the BRTC.
     
  19. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks Paul,

    According to the disc you have to lower brightness till you see one moving bar correct? Well last night starting at 100 I could see both bars and backed off brightness till only one was visible, which was at 85. Anything lower they both disappear.

    After tech left I stuck the disk back in using the same setting and couldn't see either bar so in order to see the single bar I had to raise the brightness which was at 93. Only at 100 now I can see both.

    When you want the shift point. Do you want me to calibrate using the brightest setting or the darkest. I'm not sure if you are wanting maximum brightness or just using that for reference as what it's supposed to do.
     
  20. Wesley S

    Wesley S Stunt Coordinator

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    What about the color and tint, does that sound remotely correct? 44 & +33 seem kind of a big difference but using the blue filter from what "I" can tell those squares are roughly the same brightness as the background using that setting.

    Paul I did try setting BTRC back 3 clicks to default and when brightness is at 100 you couldn't see either bar using the brightness calibration portion of the disc.
     

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