Goodbye Oakland, Hello New York (1 Viewer)

[Brett_B]

It's funny how Yankee fans don't seem to understand that baseball is being destroyed by their club.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I just edited a post in which somebody wished Steinbrenner dead. Let's be adults here and keep our perspective about serious issues and the world of baseball.
Crawdaddy

 

[Trey Fletcher]

I just read a report in which the Yankees denied that any deal has been reached, so it's not definite yet.

Here's the deal. Bud Selig is in the midst of standing before Congress and telling them how much money MLB teams lost last year. Even Steinbrenner isn't stupid enough to announce a $125 million dollar deal right in the middle of his testimony...

 

[Marvin]

Here's the deal. Bud Selig is in the midst of standing before Congress and telling them how much money MLB teams lost last year. Even Steinbrenner isn't stupid enough to announce a $125 million dollar deal right in the middle of his testimony...

Oh, is THAT all it is. Don't you think members of Congress are aware that Giambi will eventually get a very big contract, whether it's $125 million or whatever it is from NY or $91 million from Oakland?

 

[Trey Fletcher]

Oh, is THAT all it is. Don't you think members of Congress are aware that Giambi will eventually get a very big contract, whether it's $125 million or whatever it is from NY or $91 million from Oakland?

I'm sure most, if not all members of Congress who know anything about baseball, are aware that Giambi, Bonds, etc. will be receiving large free agent contracts. My point was in the Yankees denying any such deal with JG, per your post. They were only doing so because they didn't want to announce the contract in the middle of Selig's testimony. "We're losing our shirts, but still handing out nine figure deals..." Would look pretty stupid, dontcha think? Sheesh...

 

[Trey Fletcher]

Here Marvin, from the AP: "WASHINGTON (AP) -- Baseball commissioner Bud Selig railed against high player salaries during a congressional hearing where his plan to eliminate two teams was met with skepticism and hostile questions.

Selig, trying to sway public opinion in the owners' never-ending conflict with the players' association, repeatedly told the House Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday that his sport's financial problems were caused by a ``system that is badly flawed.''

He claimed baseball owners sustained a $232 million operating loss this year -- $519 million with interest payments and depreciation added in -- and placed the blame on salaries that have skyrocketed in the quarter-century of free agency and salary arbitration.

Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura, also testifying before the committee and seated next to Selig, doubted the claims of large losses.

``I have a hard time believing it, Mr. Selig, that they're losing that kind of money and still paying the salaries they're paying,'' Ventura said. ``That's asinine. These people did not get the wealth that they have by being stupid.''

Ventura blamed unfettered spending on players, citing the deal free agent agent Barry Bonds is likely to receive.

``Mr. Bonds is going to get over $100 million, no doubt. Mr. Jason Giambi, they've said he'll go well over $100 million,'' Ventura said. ``The problem out there is they're paying their employees too much money.''

Look, while Selig is "railing against high player salaries" before Congress, teams are not going to make official free agent announcements, but the deal is done.

 

[Marvin]

My point was that even if they hold off announcing his signing (assuming that will occur), do you really think that will fool anybody in Congress? Don't they read the sports pages too?

Any why do people complain only when the Yankees sign free agents? Where was the outrage when the D-Backs signed Randy Johnson? When the Red Sox signed Manny Ramirez? When the Braves signed Maddux? And so on ..

 

[Seth Paxton]

But guys, you REALLY do have to keep one thing in mind. Just because you spend the money, doesn't mean you will win.

I AGREE that there are 2 ways in which Yankee money DOES HELP. Having a great farm system and being able to keep their own players.

But free agency FAILS as much as WORKS. Do you really think JG is 3 times better than someone 1/3 his salary? Because he is not. That's my main beef with the Boss. He's an idiot with his money.

ARod put up sick numbers last year, but the money got Texas nothing. You can bitch about the Yanks all you want, but for every WS the Yanks "bought" there are 1 or 2 teams that year who's WS purchase backfired.

Texas and Boston know very well what that means this year. ARod and Manny...the numbers don't lie but the teams still lost.

As great as ARZ was, you have to wonder what this year's Phillie team might have done had they still had Curt. That's the other side of the coin. These players that "give up" on their club and go somewhere else, only to have the old club get a lot better without them. You have to wonder about team dynamics.

 

[Brett_B]

.

 

[Trey Fletcher]

Any why do people complain only when the Yankees sign free agents? Where was the outrage when the D-Backs signed Randy Johnson? When the Red Sox signed Manny Ramirez? When the Braves signed Maddux?

Because the Yankees seem to do this every year. This year, it's Giambi and his $125 mil, and Steve Karsay and his $22 mil. Last year, Mussina and his $85 mil. The year before that they give $87 mil to free agent Bernie Williams. Yes he was their free agent, but he was another big dollar signing nonetheless. Etc., etc. Sure other teams sign free agents, but not every year. At the end of the season, the question always seems to be, "who will the Yankees sign this year?"

 

[Jin E]

Steve Karsay and his $22 mil.

At least I can thamk the Yanks for taking Karsay away from my braves... he hurt a lot more then he helped this year. Of course... like a lot of our free agents that go away he'll probably have a banner year (Dye, Klesko, Boone, etc.)

 

[MikeM]

But guys, you REALLY do have to keep one thing in mind. Just because you spend the money, doesn't mean you will win.

Again, it's no guarantee at all that the Yanks will win. BUT, again, try using the game of Monopoly as an example. When one player starts out with 5 times the money as you, and most of the "good properties", there's also no guarantee that player will win either. However, it sure does give them an unfair advantage, and hopefully you can understand while some of the "rest of us" (as non Yankee fans) are losing our desire to even participate.

 

[Seth Paxton]

But Mike, based upon the research I have done on it (charting numbers for the last several years) the big money success rate is like 60% and the small money at 50%.

So while money gives an advantage (and I agree that still sucks), spending twice as much for a 10% improvement might not be the smartest way to run a team.

Think of it like this. If George was spending OUR money, we'd be pissed. Okay, maybe not right now because the Yanks have been winning. But what if you and I had been talked into investing in the Rangers and ARod's contract, or the Red Sox, etc. We'd be pretty pissed if we lost money on our investment because the stupid "owner" spent $20 million extra to get 3 more wins, or even worse ending up losing 20 more games.

Again, I think ALL OWNERS MAKE MONEY. I think MLB is run by VERY rich men who didn't get that way by accident. If you think any of these owners is going down the toilet you are crazy. I've said it before, owners are the same as corporations. When they say "in the red, losing money" it really means "I'm not making as much as I want to be".

Hearing Bud Selig lie to Congress about the Dodgers losing $60 million. They OWN THEIR STADIUM for chrissake. Their in a HUGE market, have a strong following, big TV contracts, no rent to pay, etc.

But they are going broke. If the guys didn't have the money or weren't making it back, they wouldn't be spending it. Selig is one of the worst commissioners baseball has ever had. What he and his owner buddies need is someone to come in and set them straight...ALL OF THEM.

Drive by one of the owners mansions and have him explain how he is going broke and can't afford the team, blah blah blah.

In 1991 the Twins were competitive as all get out. In 1994 the Expos were one of the top 2 teams in baseball. That's not back in the good old days. That's when people were complaing about salaries being out of control and small markets having no chance too. Hell the Padres had a "we can't survive fire sale" and turned around a bought up a bunch of Marlins and went to the WS 2 years later. Some going out of business.

I would NOT vote against a cap. I understand those problems. But I also know the history of baseball shows us that NONE of these problems is new, that NY teams have dominated much more than they have recently, and that owners have ALWAYS complained about their poor financial situation.

Pre-1996 it would take a LOT of bullshit for an A's fan to make me feel the least bit sorry for them. How many pennants was it again? 4 or 5. Exactly. And now not even 10 years later and they are coming back to the top.

Again, I think the Giambi thing is lame. But if it's all so easy then lets see one of you guys sell your house, car, kids, everything, bet the whole farm on the Yanks to win.

It's a sure thing after all. Everything on paper in the preseason of any sport is a certainty. Okay, maybe spread your money among the top 4 favorites. But risk it all if it's so certain.

The fact that none of us would take that risk tells us that money might by an advantage, but that we still watch sports because there are as many surprises as certainties.

Cripes, we just had Seattle crying to us after not being able to keep the big 3. I think it was the best damn thing that ever happened to them.

I wish George would run the team that way. Actually he did for awhile when he let Cashman have more of a say. Now George is getting ancy again. Give me more Brosius pickups and Roberto Kelly for ONeil trades and less Bonds, Sosa, Ramirez, Giambi, etc etc crap.

I am happy with the Ventura for Justice trade. Seems pretty even and fills the need well. The Yanks seem to be making a living off of 3B's at the end of their careers.

 

[mike caronia]

I always understood the Yankee hatred. But how about a little blame on the players? Isn't 91 million enough for Giambi? If he's 'the man' there, why would he risk everything he's helped build in Oakland to go to the hated Yankees?
If y'all are that infuriated, vote with your wallets. Stop going. Don't go see the Yanks when they come to your town. They are one of the league's biggest draws on the road.
Baseball will only change if the people can motivate ownership to see it their way. Until then, the rich guys will do whatever they can get away with.
Me, I like the deal. I will miss Tino (a great player, and great person), but I remember how much everyone missed Donnie Baseball...

 

[Ryan Peter]

The thing about the Twins in '91 is they were awesome. Then the following year they couldn't afford to pay the salaries of the players because the players became such hot commodities. The same would have happened this year had they gone all the way.

 

[Marvin]

The thing about the Twins in '91 is they were awesome. Then the following year they couldn't afford to pay the salaries of the players ...

Er, which "they" are you referring to? Isn't their owner, Pohlad, a billionaire? He may not have wanted to pay their salaries - after all, I think he was in his early 80s or late 70s then and was putting the money away for college - but I don't think you could say that he couldn't afford to.

 

[MikeM]

But Mike, based upon the research I have done on it (charting numbers for the last several years) the big money success rate is like 60% and the small money at 50%.

Seth, good post, but here's where I think you're not seeing the entire picture. You looked at the top 5-10 teams each year, then analized their payroll to come up with those numbers.
What you also need to do is look at the absolute LAST place finishing teams in each division, and see how they stack up.
You end up with:
Tampa Bay
Kansas City
Texas
Montreal
Pittsburgh
Colorado
What's the combination?
Only ONE team (Texas) from this list had a payroll in among the highest ten teams. This is according to Link Removed
Thus, the real conclusion should be:
1. If your team has a huge payroll (top ten let's say), that doesn't guarantee winning, but it does give an unfair advantage.
Here comes the big one you're leaving out:
2. If your team DOES NOT have a high payroll, then you are far more likely to finish in LAST PLACE, with no hope at the start of the season. (This is what's really killing baseball.)
This also doesn't even take into account teams like Colorado which had a descent sized payroll, but off loaded a lot of their highest paid players in mid-season, usually to teams with an already large payroll. So in truth, the results only get worse.

 

[Jeff_A]

Here comes the big one you're leaving out:

2. If your team DOES NOT have a high payroll, then you are far more likely to finish in LAST PLACE, with no hope at the start of the season. (This is what's really killing baseball.)

This is a very well-stated point of what should be obvious to everyone. Nice job, Mike!

 

[PatrickM]

You have to admit that a high payroll is the ticket that gets you in the door for a chance at the playoffs and the World Series.

Low payroll and your out of it before spring training starts.

Its virtually always been this way and isn't going to change without complete revenue sharing and a hard salary cap which I don't see happening in either case.

When my Blue Jays won in 92 and 93 they had a high payroll. Not the highest but right up there. Since then they've dumped payroll and haven't seen a sniff since.

Patrick

 

[Ryan Peter]

Er, which "they" are you referring to? Isn't their owner, Pohlad, a billionaire? He may not have wanted to pay their salaries - after all, I think he was in his early 80s or late 70s then and was putting the money away for college - but I don't think you could say that he couldn't afford to.

Er.. Is he supposed to pay for their salaries out of his IRA or something? Last I checked it's a business, and the way businesses pay for the employees salaries is from the revenue the team makes. Sorry, the Twins don't have those big market tv deals to draw from like the Yankees. That's where part of the revenue comes from, FYI.