Good sub for $200-250?

Dan J

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Jul 14, 2005
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I see a lot of people talking about the very inexpensive and very expensive subs, but what about the mid-price subs? I was looking at the Dayton TIT400C-4 15" Titanic MKIII for about $198 ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=295-420 ) and the RL-P15 for $279 ( http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_p...rma tion.html ). Has anyone tried the Elemental Designs eD 160v.2 ( http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...13f8e394038ac1 )?

Ideally I'd love to tune a box or Sonotube down as low as possible (16?). My room is pretty small, but my wife is very understanding so sub size won't put me in the doghouse.

And, I guess I'd like some advice about an amplifier since I don't think my Harmon Kardon DPR2005 will do what I want. I'd like to spend as little as possible big surprise huh
I just started looking for amps, so far these BASH amps seem like a pretty good deal
BASH 300W $105 ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-750 )
BASH 500W $159 ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-752 )

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan
 

Brent_S

Second Unit
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Oct 5, 2000
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What size room is "pretty small"? What volume level do you typically listen at? What is the rest of your system, especially speakers?...no point in spending the money for a Corvette or Porsche level sub if you're mains are Accords. You might want to start mocking up cabinets for her before you truly say size is not an issue, unless it's a dedicated media room...most of the commercial subs people are familiar with clock in under 3 ft^3 gross.

Download WinISD Pro from www.linearteam.org and you can quickly compare sub alignments to learn the differences between various drivers.

A Dayton RS 12" HiFi in 4 ft^3 net volume tuned to 20hz with the 300 watt BASH is a hard value to beat, IMHO. $129 for the driver, $105 for the amp right now. WinISD says 107.4 db @ 20hz, 109.3 @ 30, and 109.7 @ 40...ground plane (essentially outdoors) at 1 meter. A typical room should easily give you another 6db, especially if the sub's corner loaded.

The Titanic 15" in 6 ft^3 tuned to 20hz with 300 watts shows 109 @ 20, 112.5 @ 30, and 113 @ 40. The Titanic can easily handle one of the 500 watt amps in this alignment. You can go even bigger and get more output while dropping your power handling as you go.

Most plate amps have a rumble filter in the neighborhood of 20hz so tuning below that filter doesn't really offer any benefits. Some vendors (not PE) will modify for you or have selectable frequencies. For instance, the BASH 300 has the filter set at 17 hz, but the BASH 500 has it set at 31hz. PE does provide instructions on how to modify yourself.

-Brent
 

Dan J

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Jul 14, 2005
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Hi Brent,
Thanks for the quick reply. The room is 10x15 and is our movie room. I don't know how to describe the level we watch TV at. I like to have it around 25-30 when watching movies or football. We're selling our bigscreen rear-projection and going with a projector. We have a 5.0 setup with JBL speakers; the fronts are E-90's and I'm not sure about the others. I am sort of considering a Sonotube like the really large one that someone here has. Like I said, my wife is very understanding


I will take a look at that software later. I need to study it before I ask dumb questions. My room, due to it's small size, would be good for that 6db increase, maybe more, right? I'm not too concerned about going louder, I'd really like to get to the lower frequencies.

Thank you,
dan
 

Chad Isaacs

Supporting Actor
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Feb 20, 2000
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757
To be honest, when I purchased my JBL speakers this past April I had about the same budget you had. I kind of wanted my speakers to match ( appearance) so I just got one of the JBL subs. I read some not so good reviews but it has exceeded my expectations and the longer I have it the better it sounds. My mains are E30, center is E35 and I have 20's on the sides and 10's behind me so I went with the 250p ( 12") My room is 14/14/9 and I live in a duplex so I can't really crank it up to much but when they are gone you better believe I do. I played a few hard fast and loud cd's yesterday doing some house work and it was like being at a concert!
 

Brent_S

Second Unit
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Oct 5, 2000
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472
I was actually hoping you had an SPL meter and could give some objective meaurements of your listening levels. However, in a 10x15 room, I don't think you'll have output problems with any of the commonly used DIY drivers.

If you're soldering skills are up to the task of modifying the BASH 300 or the SA240 to a 12ish hz rumble filter:

The Titanic 15" in 10 ft^3 tuned to 15 hz will give you 105 db @ 13hz with a rising curve up to 112.6 db @ 100hz with 300 watts.

The RS 15" HiFi in 8 ft^3 tuned to 15 hz will give 102 db @ 13hz rising to 111db @ 100hz with 240 watts. The RS15-HF is currently on sale for $139.

There are nearly endless permutations of alignment options to choose from, which is why I recommended giving WinISD a whirl yourself. I just did a quick and dirty to come of with these suggestions as examples.

-Brent
 

Robert_J

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ED has. They use all of their drivers in their home theater subs. There have also be numerous people using them in DIY subs. There's a home theater section of ED's forum.

You can also get a great discount on these subs by being a member of the forum. Search ED's site for the word "forum" to find the prices.

-Robert
 

Dan J

Agent
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Jul 14, 2005
Messages
44
Chad,
I'm a woodworker so hopefully I can make something that matches the vinyl used on speakers
Believe me, it would be simplier to just buy what's out there, but the only things that would satisfy me are way above my budget. Besides I'd rather build it to our taste.

Thanks,
Dan
 

Dan J

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Jul 14, 2005
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Well, I do have an SPL meter built into the HK 2005's remote, but it doesn't go as high as my typical listening level.

My soldering skills stink, I'm very messy. I haven't seen the area where the soldering work is required, but if anything other than a professionals skills are required I'll just sub-contract that part out. You said Parts Express includes the instructions, do you need to buy any parts?

I still need to look at that software, I'm having trouble figuring out all the specs for each speaker. Seems like they give most, but not all the info. How reliable is that software without all the parameters filled out? Also, was there a special trick you used to decide which sub to use?

Thanks,
Dan
 

Dan J

Agent
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
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I saw that they had a forum on ED's site, but I wanted to make sure that their posts were objective by seeing if anyone on an outside forum would comment. I didn't see anything about a forum discount - thanks.

Dan
 

Dan J

Agent
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Jul 14, 2005
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Hmmm, for that price I'm thinking about putting two in a box. I need to figure out what that would do to the demensions and sound.

Thanks,
dan
 

Dan J

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Jul 14, 2005
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Thanks Robert, I found what you were talking about.

I'm not sure about the voice coils. How many should I get?

Thanks,
dan
 

Robert_J

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If you want to use one of the plate amps you listed above, then you want a final load of 4 ohms. So, if you want a single sub, then you want to get dual 2 ohm VC configuration. You would wire the coils in series for a 4 ohm load. If you wanted to use a pair of subs powered by a single plate amp, they you would want dual 4 ohm coils. A series/parallel wiring configuration would give you a final load of 4 ohms. Before you buy, just check here again to make sure everything will work together properly.

-Robert
 

David_P

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Messages
149
for stunning bass on the cheap, I would look at Creative Sound's site (CSS).

They're carrying the tempest classic and a variety of amps 300-500 watts, including BASH.

A tempest classic/bash300 in any of the old Adire published ported designs will be very tough to beat in the bass for dollars race. $259 US plus the cost to slap a box together.

Bob (owner) is a great guy to deal with and has tremendous business integrity, IMHO.

David
 

Dan J

Agent
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
44
Thanks for the info on the Voice Coils Robert.
David, I didn't see the specs on the Tempest, but I'm already considering 4-5 speakers and I'm going nuts with all the different options. I give up



Ok, so I'm back after futzing with WinISD. I've got some questions if someone would help me out. First, why doesn’t the number or size of ports affect WinISD? Second, obviously I’m doing something wrong. I can’t get the db that you’re talking about in my charts. I'm including some screen shots (thanks to the forum for hosting them
). Maybe someone sees what I'm doing wrong?


The yellow is the 12" Titanic and the red is the 12" Dayton RS high fidelity version, BTW is that the one to use or should I use the high power version? Both setups are dual drivers, they're tuned to the same hertz, and the boxes size are the same. I guess I should ask, would the previously mentioned amps run those dual driver setups?

The box size is perfect for the room because I would like to put the JBL EC35 center on top of it. The sub's height with the center on it would be just below where we are going to mount the screen for the projector. The sub's depth matches the depth of the JBL E-90 L+R's. I know the box isn't the optimized size, but that also (like the # or size of ports) doesn't seem to affect things on the graph.

Finally, I had graphed the 15" Titanic, and the 16" Elemental. The single driver ED seems to be much lower than the other setups. The 15" Titanic runs right in the middle with only one driver. I'll include one more screen shot. Seems like it's between the Titanics, right?


Thank you,
Dan
 

Brent_S

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Messages
472
Ok, let me try this again. Windoze went BSOD just before I could submit the first time.

Dan, first you want to download WinISD Pro Alpha .xxx. You installed the basic version which is missing a few features.

Pro has a signal tab that lets you input the maximum power you'll be feeding the driver. This in turn lets you see graphs of cone excursion, spl produced, port velocity, etc.

The port velocity graph will let you see what changing diameters and number of ports does to air velocity in the port. The lower the velocity, the less port noise (chuffing) you're likely to hear. See my 34 m/s and 17 m/s recommendations in my first post and/or search the web a bit. I've also read that inadequate porting can limit potential SPL output since the port produces most of the sound around it's tuning point, but I've never seen formulas to predict. Stay below the typical air velocity suggestions and you should be fine.

The Titanics and RS drivers are 4 ohm single coil drivers. That means a pair can either be wired to give a 2 ohm (parallel) or 8 ohm (series) load to the amplifier. Problem is, most plate amps, including all of PE's, aren't spec'd for 2 ohm loads. If you use the 300 watt BASH with 2 drivers in series, you're looking at sending roughly 75-100 watts to each driver...depending on how much power the amp will actually drive into 8 ohms. If it perfectly doubles voltage with impedance drops, then you're looking at 150/2...most likely it doesn't double so you might actually see 200/2 into 8ohm.

Last thing. Unless you're going to lay your sonotubes on their side, you're looking at up/down firing your drivers. This is never really a good thing for any sub driver, but it's less of a negative for some than others. PE has the formulas for calculating cone sag somewhere on their site. I'm almost positive I remember reading that the RS 15" drivers weren't suitable for downfiring, not sure about the 12" version. I think the Titanics are probably in the "not too bad" category.

-Brent
 

Brent_S

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Messages
472
One more last thing...

PE's DVC12 / DVC15 are virtually clones of the original Shiva/Tempest at a slightly lower cost.

As most things in life, there are tradeoffs in every decision. You need to define your hard specs...budget, box size, frequency extension, spl target, color, cone color, dust cap logos, whatever... ranked in the order of importance to you and then find a driver/alignment that best meets your goals.

-Brent
 

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