Good sub choice for around $999? (1 Viewer)

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>Okay, when do we start the SVS comparisions.. For the money, they have to be in running.. Go ahead guys, I'm curious.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I sure can't argue with the SV reviews if you can afford them and they fit your decor. If you want another option I believe Tom V. has stated the Velodyne SPL1200 is a good choice for around $750-$800 (I almost bought one but splurged on the HGS-15-truly awesome). The SPL1200 got fairly high marks on the TN sub review too.

SP

 

[Mike_Ped]

Build a SONOSUB. I did it and LOVE it!

Mike

 

[Martice]

For the money and performance you get, you can't beat DIY.
Just for kicks, Check this site out - Press Here
I'm sure an Adire Tempest 15" Sono Tube would lift your house of the foundation. If you go to the DIY section, there was a post showing people who build Sono subs for a terribly low price if you can't build your own.
However, if you must go with an established company that builds Sono Type subs, I would go with SVS for sure. Hard to beat.

 

[Myram]

Here is the link you need to provide you with all the bass you could ever want or need -
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=33973
That is an incredible price for that package.....you won't find a package anywheres at that price that will compete.
Good Luck.

 

[Paul Seward]

There should be no question about this...

SVS

nuff said, you will not be disapointed with any model that you may choose.

What SVS offers:

Price,

Service,

Results!

 

[Jack Gilvey]

It might also be worth it to wait and see how the Hsu VTF-3 turns out. As I said in another thread, if Dr. Hsu performs the same magic on it that he apparently did on the VTF-2, it may well be untouchable under $1000.
Having said that, it's interesting to see the kind of performance two VTF-2's will get you ($900 tops, maybe $800 with the deals I've seen floating around?). Add 6db to its numbers and see where that puts you in Tom Nousaine's list . And the driver and amp have been upgraded to new models since that VTF-2 was tested.
Go with Descartes, question everything.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Jack,
*untouchable under $1000*...?
I'll definitely take that bet...
20-39CS+/S1000.(or the upcoming PC+)
Actually,I'd feel very comfortable with our current 20-39cs/S700 package($749) being match against the new VTF-3.
Maybe we could talk Brian into doing another shootout for hometheaterhifi?
TV

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Can't disagree with you, Tom, seeing as I don't know jack about the VTF-3 as far as real performance goes. As I tried to imply, I'm just conjecturing based on what he's done at the VTF-2's price point.

Still, dual VTF-2's are an interesting under-$1000 option, seemingly leapfrogging even the Velodyne F1800 on Ye' Oldde Liste.

Another shootout would be fun, especially if it attempted to stick to an actual price range. Still, I'm spoiled (I blame you) for controlled Nousaine-type data, so I don't come away with too much from them.

 

[ling_w]

Hsu's 6th order overdamped design causes an early rolloff, but the added benefit of increased efficeincy above the rolloff point. So, the 500w amp would not be acting like a 125w amp @ 20hz, but more like a 2000w amp above 45hz.

6th order design are almost never build by sonotube guys because of its complication..

As far as another sub that is accurate, the Vandersteen V2W is very fast and tight. It might not have the deepest and loudest bass, but its speed & seamless ability to integrate with the main system is unbeatable. It might come a little above your price range though, at $1295 MSRP.

Anyway, the secret to good sub integration is to cross over low, way lower than the 80/100/125hz xover freq in std systems.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Hsu's 6th order overdamped design causes an early rolloff, but the added benefit of increased efficeincy above the rolloff point. So, the 500w amp would not be acting like a 125w amp @ 20hz, but more like a 2000w amp above 45hz.

6th order design are almost never build by sonotube guys because of its complication..

Could you possibly be a little more detailed in your analysis? What order is the sub itself without the amp, and what is so complicated about it?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Hsu's 6th order overdamped design causes an early rolloff, but the added benefit of increased efficeincy above the rolloff point. So, the 500w amp would not be acting like a 125w amp @ 20hz, but more like a 2000w amp above 45hz.

 

[ling_w]

6th order could be a real design w/some complicated cabinetry or a quasi 6th order, which would utilize a 4th order bass reflex system and a 2nd order filtering. So it requires the tinkering with electronic filtering param to integrate with the sub. Many sonotube guys were using routers for the first time, so to start soldering and reading a scope might be a little to much for them.

Here are excerpts from the Dr. himself.

6th order systems have overdamped drivers (i.e., drivers with higher BL which translates into higher efficiency drivers. These drivers have an overdamped characteristic which lead to the early bass rolloff, which is flattened by the EQ. Hence, as I said, 6th order systems with the same enclosure size and cutoff have much higher upper bass efficiency than the maximally flat 4th order system. To have the same headroom as the 4th order system at the peak boost frequency, the 6th order system will have 6 dB more headroom in the upper bass.

...

My best guess is that the two system would probably be about equal in headroom at the cutoff frequency, with the 6th order system having higher headroom above that. However. Note that power is cheap these days.

...

The 12Va is also a 6th order system. Using the 12Va driver in the 12V cabinet requires less boost, not no boost since the tuning and net internal volume of 12V and 12Va are different.

...

All my 6th order designs I know are 4th order acoustically, with a 2nd order electronic assist.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

So it requires the tinkering with electronic filtering param to integrate with the sub. Many sonotube guys were using routers for the first time, so to start soldering and reading a scope might be a little to much for them.

When you cascade a fourth order vented cab with a second order HP, would that not result in a sixth order rolloff? I'd think even one of us DIY dolts might handle it. What types to you prefer to build?
It does appear that Dr. Hsu has used a high efficiency driver, trading that for raw bandwidth. Maybe a higher BL, if magnet size is anything, the magnet structure on the new drivers is bigger than anything I've seen (or held) near its price class. This is certainly something that needs to be considered, as simple comparisons of the power used by eq assumes subs/drivers of the same sensitivity. There's probably lots more that goes into it, as the recent comparisons in The Sensible Sound show.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Well, everyone has their own ideas of the best designs. The *quasi* 6th TN25/250w hit
107.0dB(25-63hz) and extended to 30hz. The TN25 has a PEAK clean output of 111dB at 62hz.(with the full 2 kilowatts of this special 6th order?...maybe these are *bob-watts*?)
With source material...it maxxed out in the 114-115 range
-------
single 20-39cs(basic non-magical 4th order enclosure btw...)
109.5dB from 25-63hz(almost 50%(3dB) more clean output).
extended to 25hz(1/3rd octave deeper).
PEAK clean output of 114.9dB/31hz.(4dB MORE,at a full octave lower...)
With source material...the SVS maxxed out in the 118dB range.(again,a full 3dB~50% higher).
dual 20-39s/S700=$1199 direct from svs
dual TN25s/500w hsu combo =$1440(?) direct from Hsu
And don't even get me started on the build quality issues...*go to radioshack to buy your own grilles?...puhleez*
TV

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Yeah, I never liked the old TN25. It seems the new 1220 is much improved. -3db@15Hz is impressive by any measure. Any chance there will be a link to the entire recent Sensible Sound 16-46 review on the SVS site? It includes a few of the subs the SVS is constantly compared to, and might prove very useful.

I never had a problem with the build quality on my 1220, but one thing I'll say is that you probably will not find any posts about defective SVS drivers, etc, if you search.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>Yeah, I never liked the old TN25. It seems the new 1220 is much improved. -3db@15Hz is impressive by any measure.>>Any chance there will be a link to the entire recent Sensible Sound 16-46 review on the SVS site? It includes a few of the subs the SVS is constantly compared to, and might prove very useful. >I never had a problem with the build quality on my 1220, but one thing I'll say is that you probably will not find any posts about defective SVS drivers, etc, if you search.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Was there an issue with defective Hsu drivers? I never even heard.

No, none that I've ever heard of. Just thought it worth mentioning that you probably won't find a post on defective SVS stuff.

 

[SVS-Ron]

Jack,
We probably will buy the rights to reprint that article. Returning calls to folks (reprint coordinator for TSS for instance) during the holidays is murder.
We have a few sound bites up on our Reviews page, but it could be a few more days (weeks? when do "normal" companies come back to work :^)? though. If they cut us a break on the cost like they did on the TN review of our early 20-39CS samples then you can count on that soon.
My favorite quote from the article in question?
"...virtually every other subwoofer I have reviewed, including the Hsu TN1220HO and the Paradigm Servo 15...fell short of the 16-46PC's elevated output."
Naturally you need to read the entire review to get the full context but I think it captures Howard Ferstler's feelings about the SVS.
Ron

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Thanks, Ron. I wholeheartedly agree on quotes needing the entire context of the review. They can be somewhat misleading otherwise as I'm sure we're all aware.
(I think that's my favorite quote, also. )