George Lucas - out of touch? (1 Viewer)

[Dion]

I should probably be clear about what my opinion on this matter actually is:

1. Beauty is not simply "in the eye of the beholder", i.e. it isn't nonsense to suggest that one film is better or worse than another.
2. However, you cannot "prove" that one film is better than another. You may create a strong argument to support your aesthetic judgment with appropriate evidence, but others are just as free to interpret the evidence differently.
3. Hence although there may be aesthetic truths (and indeed, they may be related to moral truths), it falls upon the individual to decide whether a particular film approaches those truths.
4. Oh, and truth is necessary, not contingent upon external factors such as popular opinion.[/list=1]
   
   
   
   Hence I can very well say "I think The Phantom Menace is a good film" and not just mean "I like the film The Phantom Menace," and someone else can assert that it's a bad film, but neither of us has the authority or knowledge to claim absolutely that the other person is wrong.

 

[James D S]

as you said yourself earlier in the thread, you believe truth to represent something "above reproach"

Refer to point #2
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I believe that one such cinematic truth is that right now The Godfather is a great film.
I believe that if you believe The Phantom Menace is a great film, you are cinematically insane. By definition of insanity and the context in which it is given.
You may not believe you are, but many insane people do not believe they are insane - That is nothing new.
-
Considering that we've been arguing these points all the while with confusion as to the simple meanings of critical words, I can't imagine how the argument unfolds from here. I am a bit shocked at how difficult it is for some to "say caught up" and I am growing tired of making the same points over and over. Suffice it to say, I feel confident that I've been allowed to share my view, despite what at times was nothing more than vitrolic rhetoric coming from the oposition - I still think if one were interested in my opposing view, there is enough here that it should be clear, given the chance.
I refuse to believe that it is that difficult an idea as some have made it out.

 

[James D S]

but neither of us has the authority or knowledge to claim absolutely that the other person is wrong. -Dion

Dion, refer to the list of definitions. There does exist an authority on truth.

In either case, welcome to the forum - I think you'll make (and have made) a valuable addition. It has been interesting and I hope I've supplied as much "food for thought" as you have.

"Aaaaand I'm spent" - Austin Powers

 

[Damin J Toell]

I can't imagine how the argument unfolds from here.

it doesn't. you've made your points while failing to respond to the major objections raised throughout the thread (and, instead, changing the definitions of words to avoid the need for response). it seems over to me.

i'm not being combative. i merely don't appreciate your methodology.

DJ

 

[Dion]

James,
Thanks for the welcome.

Dion, refer to the list of definitions. There does exist an authority on truth.

All I can say is that if you mean, again, that society is the authority on truth, at least in the aesthetic sense, then I must, again, disagree. Either way, I doubt anyone here has conducted an official survey on whether or not TPM was good.
As far as insanity goes, I think it's more than just having an opinion that falls outside the norm. Consider:

• I think TPM is a good film
• I hear voices and bark like a dog

Hopefully you'll agree that there's a bit of a difference there.
Anyway, I better get back to creating my shrine to Jar Jar Binks. He tells me things at night... Ruff!

 

[Anthony_D]

Empire Strikes Back was made by committee. Kershner directed. Kurtz produced. Brackett and Kasdan cowrote the screenplay. George was credited with "Story" which people in the know will tell you is different from screenplay.

Thats fine and dandy that you feel that way but for some reason people just want to bitch about Lucas no matter what...lets look at Raiders of the Lost ark...Lucas is given no credit for those movies...at least in these parts...and he was one of the PRODUCERS of the film.
With Star Wars people love to give credit to hack directors like Kirshner and Marquand and hack producers like Kurtz but like to neglect the fact that its Lucas story. He can do with it what he pleases...I dont hear people bitching about Kevin Smith (who has lost it IMHO) when he writes, directs and produces and even acts. What has Kershner ever done that was so great??? Lucas is the one that really directed ESB and ROJ...face it. Kershner even fucked up alot of scenes and Lucas had to reshoot them.
Besides which, if George Lucas really has lost it TPM would not have grossed $431 million dollars.
I just love the fact that people love to bitch about Lucas and star wars, yet they are quick to get out the ky jelly and rubber gloves when STar Wars threads pop up here...or when the movies come out, like with Attack Of the Clones.
One more thing...people also claim that Mccallum is a yes man, but fact is, you have no clue what goes on during the filming and production meetings etc. You cant make the assertion that Rick is a yes man unless you have been on set.

 

[Anthony_D]

what it comes down to is that RobertR believes that film has certain unassailable true standards (that are true in themselves and aren't mere norms) which he knows and that anyone who might disagree with him is blind to the truth. see what i said earlier about those who believe their opinions to be facts....

Once again RobertR has made ridiculous statements about TPM...what a surprise!!!!!!!
He can't get enough!!!

 

[Damin J Toell]

Clearly it was better than you thought since it took in 431 million friggin dollars...

i'd really hesitate to draw a necessary connection between quality and box office receipts. often times, bad films do well and good films fail.

DJ

 

[Anthony_D]

i'd really hesitate to draw a necessary connection between quality and box office receipts. often times, bad films do well and good films fail.

By whos standards??? Yours?? Thats a little self aggrandizing, don't ya think?

 

[Damin J Toell]

By whos standards??? Yours?? Thats a little self aggrandizing, don't ya think?

how dare i have an opinion! people make choices all the time about what they think is good or bad.

and isn't your standard of box office receipt equalling quality just as self-aggrandizing? aren't you simply applying your own standard, just as i am?

read through the last 7 pages. i'm not about to rehash all of it.

DJ

 

[Anthony_D]

I didnt say anything about you not being allowed to have an opinion...all i'm saying is that everyones standards for a good movie are different...Just like when you see an ad for a car in the classified section...sometims you will see the word "mint" to describe the car, but when you go and see it for yourself, the car is anythin but mint..that's my point!

I think what you mean to say is how dare I have an opinion about lucas/Star wars that is favorable!!

 

[Damin J Toell]

I think what you mean to say is how dare I have an opinion about lucas/Star wars that is favorable!!

what in the world are you talking about? I like George Lucas and Star Wars.

if you're going to put words in my mouth, at least make sure they have some basis in fact.

DJ

 

[Tom Ryan]

I think trying to relate popular success and quality is pretty foolish. By that line of reasoning, N'Sync and the Backstreet Boys would be the best groups of the last five years, and Titanic would be the greatest film of all time. The fact is, the more a film makes these days, the LESS likely it is to be a truly great film...look at The Mummy Returns, Rush Hour 2, Pearl Harbor, all these films made around $200 million or over, and sure they were entertaining, but in the context of film history they were crap. And that's just over the past year.

-Tom

 

[Anthony_D]

and sure they were entertaining, but in the context of film history they were crap. And that's just over the past year.

How can you make statement about a movie from one year ago and use in the contxt of history to say that its crap???

 

[Damin J Toell]

again yo are making a statement based on YOUR PERSONAL OPINION about what is good...keep that in mind

so are you...keep that in mind.

DJ

 

[Anthony_D]

Titanic would be the greatest film of all time.

Tom...some people already claim that Titanic is just that...I hated it...but I acknowledge that it is good on some level for so many people to have loved it

 

[Luc D]

Of course if something is widely popular then it must have redeemable qualities, but to associate success with quality is a tad naive. Sure, Episode I made 430 million dollars, but is it better than The Empire Strikes Back, which made half of that (of course, unadjusted)?

In the end success/popularity is not a good measure of quality. If it were then McDonalds would be considered the best restaurant in the world.

Back to the topic at hand, I do think George Lucas has made some poor decisions over the last 6 years or so. In that sense then I would tend to say that he is abit out of touch. Naturally, audiences have grown to be a bit more sophisticated since 1977, so in terms of storytelling I think Lucas may be a bit behind the times (based only on Episode I).

 

[Dion]

Anthony,
I wouldn't call Kershner a "hack". Don't get me wrong, I do believe that Lucas was the main creative force behind The Empire Strikes Back, but I don't see that as a reason to believe that Kershner's input was negligible or non-existent. I just finished reading Skywalking, and according to that, Kershner was actually putting too much effort into the film, causing it to go over-budget.
Also, it might be an idea to re-read the last few pages of this thread before getting flustered over the "popular opinion" debate.

 

[Tom Ryan]

Tom...some people already claim that Titanic is just that...I hated it...but I acknowledge that it is good on some level for so many people to have loved it

Anthony, people can claim that all they want. Titanic is not the best film of all time. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

-Tom

 

[Norm]

The reason TPM made so much money, is the fact that it was the first Stars Wars movie in 16 years! It could have been pure crap and still made 300 million. Indy 4 will make a ton also bad or good!