Game of Thrones Season 4 (news and episodes discussion) (1 Viewer)

[Quentin]

I didn't think he'd go down until eps. 3, but I guess they want to focus more on the aftermath. It is curious to see them moving full boar ahead on the Reek storyline - bookwise, it is far ahead of where the main plot is currently at. But, I suspect they need to give Alfie Allen something to do.

I was also surprised at the very on the nose accusation by Cersei to Brienne about her feelings for Jaimie. I've always believed her feelings are more complex than just love (in the way that Cersei accuses), and I thought it was a bit of a simplistic cheat to throw that line away in the midst of the wedding sequence.

 

[RobertR]

does the boy become king and Cersei becomes Queen Regent again?

That's it.

 

[Quentin]

Based on the sheer number of non-skippable events in Feast and Dance, and based on the speed at which the show is generally progressing (which is actually not as fast as some claim), my guess is three seasons will be needed. A friend and I went itemized all of the (key) events yet to be covered, and even moving at an increased pace, it's doubtful the show will be able to do it all in two seasons.

Take, for example, the season 4 premiere: while the show appears to have skipped a large portion of Sansa's story (much of which is considered to be the weakest in the entire series) at "saved" some time there, it ultimately covered only 2-3 chapters (excluding Sansa's), one of which isn't even fully in A Storm of Swords at all!

Despite what many people say, a lot happens in Feast and Dance, and much of it will have to be dealt with.

Oh, I think they can easily do it. They're already well into books 4/5 with the Reek storyline, Bran's storyline, and Daenarys' storyline. The big questions are: will books 6/7 require 2, 3, or 4 seasons to finish? And, what is going to happen with Arya and Bran? Bran already looks SO much older than he should be...and Arya is growing up fast.

And, yes Yee - Tommyn becomes King and Cersei is Queen Regent again.

 

[mattCR]

There are so many book moments from this season I am wildly looking forward to now. Joffrey's death was a big one, but it's not the death I most think of in this book.. no, that comes later.

And the trial of Tyrion..

Oh lord, the directors on this show are just killing it

 

[joshEH]

Has anyone linked to Jack Gleeson's interview with EW yet? Fantastic, smart, funny guy. The interviewer was practically begging him to continue acting.

Team Lannister are kind of running low on heirs. There's Tommen, but after that, the throne either passes legally to Myrcella, who's stuck engaged to some dude in Dorne, who hate the Lannisters; or if women can't inherit the throne, passes to Stannis and his cray-cray wife + Melisandre -- who also hate the Lannisters.

Dany should really get her ass in gear to Westeros.

 

[joshEH]

There are so many book moments from this season I am wildly looking forward to now. Joffrey's death was a big one, but it's not the death I most think of in this book.. no, that comes later.

And the trial of Tyrion..

Oh lord, the directors on this show are just killing it

Agreed, one hundred percent.

Seriously, I wonder if we'll get the other "Holy shit!" Lannister-related moment in this season. It makes sense time-wise, but until we see the title of Episode 9 (the likely spot for such an event), it's hard to say. Episode 8 is "The Mountain and the Viper," which is going to be awesome.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

With Joffrey dead, who nominally inherits? IIRC he had a kid brother and sister, so does the boy become king and Cersei becomes Queen Regent again? Or were the two younger kids killed in the war? In which case technically surely Stannis Baratheon is next in line?

I believe they have male-preference primogeniture. So Tommen would inherit before Myrcella. With Myrcella presumably married off to one of the Martells in Dorne, she might be out of the running anyway.

Agreed, one hundred percent. Seriously, I wonder if we'll get the other "Holy shit!" Lannister-related moment in this season. It makes sense time-wise, but until we see the title of Episode 9 (the likely spot for such an event), it's hard to say. Episode 8 is "The Mountain and the Viper," which is going to be awesome.

I just updated my episode breakdown chart with the final titles. Episode 9 is "The Watchers on the Wall" and Episode 10 is "The Children" (though some sources are reporting it as "The Children of the Forest").

 

[RobertR]

I'll be very disappointed if the Tyrion-Tywin-Shae stuff isn't done this season.

 

[Josh Dial]

Oh, I think they can easily do it. They're already well into books 4/5 with the Reek storyline, Bran's storyline, and Daenarys' storyline.

They aren't by my reckoning.

Re: Bran (book spoilers):

Spoiler

The last events to happen in Season 3 were Bran warging into Hodor, and Sam giving Bran, Hodor, Meera, and Jojen information on how to pass the wall. These events happen in A Storm of Swords, chapters 40 and 56, respectively.Bran's latest scene in Season 4 s interesting in that it evokes the scene from A Dance with Dragons where Bran touches the heart tree. However, it is also similar to the (until now) neglected portions of Bran's story about his journey north and his quest for the Three-Eyed Crow. Overall, I think the Bran storyline is running around the end of book 3, but also filling in some gaps from the previous chapters (I expect to see The Knight of the Laughing Tree story soon).

Re: Reek (book spoilers):

Spoiler

As was discussed in the previous season thread, Reek/Theon is a special case in that his presence in the show is clearly meant to serve a different purpose than in the books. In the books, we are shown a broken shell of a man in Reek, and left to mostly wonder how he was made that way (for example, we are never explicitly told he was castrated). In the show, not only do they need to give the actor some screen time for a few seasons, the powers-that-be have clearly decided to show us what happens to Theon. The result is a story that is virtually non-existent in the books. Accordingly, it's difficult to place Theon's story in any one book. Though the storyline regarding Moat Cailin appears in book 6, I don't think the show is actually heading for that particular series of events (no "Arya Stark," etc). I think it's another season of new story/untold events/retold events for Reek.

Re: Dany (book spoilers):

Spoiler

The last major Dany sequence in Season 3 was the liberating of Yunkai. This happens in chapter 42 of book 3. In Season 4, episode 1, we saw the path to Mereen and the child corpes along the road. This happens in chapter 57 of book 3.My guess is that much of this season will focus on the siege of Mereen.

I any event, I don't think the show is well into book 4/5. Just based on episode titles, it's pretty easy to tell what the major events from this season are going to be.

 

[joshEH]

Casket-side, incest date-rape at a funeral. Happy Easter, everyone!

That scene with Tywin and Tommen was a great one, but right afterwards, with twin-lovin' next to the dead corpse of their nephew-son, still rings as "Ewww." Also, the television show played it much more rapey than I took the scene from the book. Don't get me wrong, GRRM can be very rapey, but this particular scene didn't seem that way to me back then.

Also, I love that the title was "Breaker of Chains," and we only get Daenerys in the last 10 minutes. I am glad that Daario was flashier here, but I think he needs the added visual flair.

It makes sense to give him the Strong Belwas scene, but man, I missed me some Belwas. I also kinda wished Daario had taken a shit at the gate, because I laughed to no end over that scene in the book.

 

[Sam Posten]

I'm nervous about discussing the Jaime/Cersei incident here at HTF, I had very strong negative reaction to that scene but know we could very quickly reach the bounds of good taste in what is acceptable about discussing here. The vast majority of the episode was TERRIFIC changes to the books. The Jaime/Cersei scene however was not. To me it undoes all of the good will that Jaime has built up, which might be the intention of the show runners, but that deviates sooo strongly from what happens in the books as to make him even more reprehensible than his worst from season 1. To get into the "Was it or wasn't it" part tho? Down that way lies madness. Recommend we tread lightly.

 

[TravisR]

I'm nervous about discussing the Jaime/Cersei incident here at HTF, I had very strong negative reaction to that scene but know we could very quickly reach the bounds of good taste in what is acceptable about discussing here.

I use a lot of profanity in real life but when posting here, I use the show as a guide for what is and isn't acceptable. If it's a network show, I'll keep it PG-13. In the case of this show where it's arguably the most depraved series ever made, I think every fucking thing is acceptable to talk about.

To get into the "Was it or wasn't it" part tho? Down that way lies madness. Recommend we tread lightly.

She says no multiple times so there's no way to say that he didn't rape her. That doesn't mean that the producers are rape-promoting misogynists (a sentiment probably all over Twitter today) or that fans shouldn't be bummed that they've made an ugly change to the character, it just means that one character raped another.

 

[Sam Posten]

Yeah Travis, and you may be referencing the same Slate article I read this morning, I didn't want to link to it cause, again, that way lies madness.

 

[Sam Posten]

Regarding WHO poisoned Joffrey (Seriously spoiler, don't read if not willing to go down that road):

Spoiler

Check this:
http://kotaku.com/the-big-thing-you-mightve-missed-in-last-nights-game-of-1563058360

This differs a bit from the book of course, here's the one gotcha I see in this theory: Why would Olenna have the necklace, then give it to sansa, steal the bead FROM sansa at the wedding and then have Littlefinger smash it this episode? Why doesn't she just bring some strangler of her own instead of making Sansa the drug mule? Is she doing it FOR Littlefinger? Is it a kind of receipt?

 

[TravisR]

Yeah Travis, and you may be referencing the same Slate article I read this morning...

I hadn't but I took a look and reading the director's quote, I have to wonder if there was a difference between the cut that he turned in and the producers' cut that ran last night. It seems to me that the show went out of its way to make it understood that it wasn't consensual or some kind of kinky rough sex but rape.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I'm nervous about discussing the Jaime/Cersei incident here at HTF, I had very strong negative reaction to that scene but know we could very quickly reach the bounds of good taste in what is acceptable about discussing here. The vast majority of the episode was TERRIFIC changes to the books. The Jaime/Cersei scene however was not. To me it undoes all of the good will that Jaime has built up, which might be the intention of the show runners, but that deviates sooo strongly from what happens in the books as to make him even more reprehensible than his worst from season 1. To get into the "Was it or wasn't it" part tho? Down that way lies madness. Recommend we tread lightly.

I agree with you. It's not so much the portrayal of the rape itself that I find problematic, as it's been clearly established that rape is prevalent in this world. But the one scene completely undermines Jaime's well-executed journey over the course of the third season. If a show wants me to sympathize with a character, it shouldn't make him a rapist. Going forward, even when Jaime's shown doing something sympathetic, in the back of my mind, I'm going to be thinking of him raping his sister because she spurned his advances and made him pout. It's just a counterproductive move.

I hadn't but I took a look and reading the director's quote, I have to wonder if there was a difference between the cut that he turned in and the producers' cut that ran last night. It seems to me that the show went out of its way to make it understood that it wasn't consensual or some kind of kinky rough sex but rape.

I'm wondering the same thing. The thing I don't get is the purpose of it. The show doesn't gain anything by it, but it loses something enormous from it. If the intent was that Cersei's reservations about getting it on at the foot of her son's corpse were to be overcome by the heat of Jaime's passion, it needed to telegraph that a lot more clearly. Generally speaking, if you have to ask whether it's rape, it's rape. And in that scene, I don't think anybody really needed to ask.I enjoyed the rest of the episode. The final act with the confrontation at the front gate of Meereen and Daenerys's forces catapulting broken chains over the wall had a wonderful forboding quality about it. It's like watching Jaws, and Daenerys is the shark. And after tons of location shooting with sparse CG additions, it was pretty impressive to see the show tackle an all CG environment. Meereen looked like Chichen Itza by way of the Egyptians.Sansa seems to have slipped out of the frying pan and into the fire. After seeing the wool pulled over her eyes again and again, it was nice to see her fall into Littlefinger's lap and have her instantly know that he's at least as much of a threat to her as the people she left.I liked the cut from Arya again being appalled by the Hound's crass and dishonorable pragmatism, to Jon Snow's crass and dishonorable pragmatism at Castle Black. One of the great through lines of this show is seeing the surviving Starks adapt to a world that no longer has much room for honor, and where they draw the lines.This was a transitional episode with no major plot events, and "Game of Thrones" does these sorts of episodes better than just about any show on television. I just wish they'd played that scene by the corpse of the king differently.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

In his interview with The Hollywood Reporter, he makes it pretty clear that he was intending to show a rape scene:"That was one of the greatest days I've ever had filming. To film Charles (Dance) kidnapping Lena's son with words for three minutes of monologue -- and to have Lena keeping up with him at the highest bar of acting possible with no words at all -- was a joy. It was directorial crack to do that scene. It was one of my favorite scenes I've ever shot. It's almost like a build from Ordinary People meets a Hitchcock movie, because you're sitting here going, 'This is so dysfunctional and bizarre.' She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, 'He's kidnapping her only boy,' because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like -- you read the scene and go, 'Wait, who's directing this?'"The show's in real danger of painting its characters in such shades of gray that you have nothing redeeming to hang your hat on. Rape is one of those things you can't really come back from.

 

[Josh Dial]

The rape scene was poorly conceived. Jaime is my favourite character in the books, but after episode 3, it's certainly more difficult to make the same claim regarding the character in the show.

It was a mistake, plain and simple.

Regarding WHO poisoned Joffrey (Seriously spoiler, don't read if not willing to go down that road):

Spoiler

Check this:
http://kotaku.com/the-big-thing-you-mightve-missed-in-last-nights-game-of-1563058360

This differs a bit from the book of course, here's the one gotcha I see in this theory: Why would Olenna have the necklace, then give it to sansa, steal the bead FROM sansa at the wedding and then have Littlefinger smash it this episode? Why doesn't she just bring some strangler of her own instead of making Sansa the drug mule? Is she doing it FOR Littlefinger? Is it a kind of receipt?

The content of your spoiler is the same as in the book:

Spoiler

In book 3, a number of lines from Petyr all but reveal that he conspired with Lady Olenna to poison Joffrey--in fact he specifically says she did it. Of course, everyone is a liar, but dialogue elsewhere support his "theory." Based on the Ghost of Highheart's prophecy (and the working rule that all prophecies come true), the hairnet/necklace is most certainly the murder weapon (well, the gem is).

 

[Sam Posten]

You misunderstand.

Spoiler

I agree she is the murderer, like the book says. But why the back and fourth with the necklace? Why tie it to Sansa?

 

[Walter Kittel]

Regarding Sam's question in spoilers:

Spoiler

Having Sansa convey the poison via the necklace serves several purposes. Should the guests have been searched prior to entering the grounds the poison would not be on Oleanna's person. It is safe to assume based on the last episode that the necklace will be discovered with the corpse of Ser Dontos. This will tie the poisoning to Sansa, keeping Oleanna's hands clean.

Additional thoughts that are mildly spoilerish for those how haven't read the third book in the series:

Spoiler

For Peyter Baelish (Littlefinger) having Sansa carry the poison implicates Tyrion in Joffrey's death. Tyrion being the cup bearer is just another bit of luck for the conspirators. If Tyrion is executed this will release Sansa from her current marriage, opening the door for Littlefinger to pursue marriage with Sansa. Sansa is safely out of reach of the Lannisters and firmly in the grasp of Littlefinger, so he is less concerned about the perception of her role in the assassination vs. her husband's.

Anyway, that is my take on the situation. I've read the first three books in the series, but I don't recall the specifics.

- Walter.