Frequency waterfall charts of a few familiar favourites (1 Viewer)

[KeithY]

Blueman Group Club Nowhere



I got the screenshots figured out, but how do you guys do the arrows?

 

[Ilkka R]

You have to use some program, Photoshop or PSP.

 

[Kaj]

I copy the screenshots into another program, (InDesign) and then do all my text and arrows and other pics in there, and then save the document as a jpeg or whatever. You can't actually create the arrows in SpecLab, it is an external addition.

And with the comparison of a DD and a DTS track,
Please be careful . . .
You cannot, must not, compare directly as some have done.
Check out Ilkka R's post for some more detail.
As I have also learnt, you cannot even directly compare movie to movie with these waterfall charts. Just because one seems to have more red, doesn't mean it is better or worse.
Each movie is mixed differently, at different levels. Each requires a different volume setting to get the same reference level between them.
Example:
On movie1 you may have an explosion at, say, 20hz and speclab shows it to be at -10dB.
Then you go do movie2, with the same settings, and it shows a similar explosion at 20Hz to only be at -20dB. Obviously the -10dB explosion is louder/better, no?
Not necessarily, you must not compare like that, it is not apples with apples.
What if the movie2 that showed only a -20dB explosion, is mixed 15dB LOWER than movie1 that measured in at -10dB.
In other words, when you watch movie2 in you HT you will turn up the volume 15dB MORE than movie1 to get the same average Reference Level (a good measure is dialog).
So now, really, the louder movie is movie2, not movie1. But speclab showed otherwise.

Then the whole issue with DD and DTS tracks being mixed at different levels again makes things even more complicated.

So you cannot compare directly.
Use the charts as only a guide.
The only thing on these charts that should be fixed are the Frequencies, if there is an explosion at 5Hz, then there is an explosion at 5Hz and the charts will show it.
So really, use the volume/colours key, and the actual colours on the chart (blue to pink), as only a GUIDE for which part are respectively louder and softer, not actually how loud and how soft, especially not compared to another movie or format
.
Hope that made sense and was ok.

Nice to see some more charts though

Cheers
KJ

 

[Ilkka R]

Hope that made sense and was ok.

Yes, it was ok. Lets hope someone else than me understands it too...

 

[KeithY]

Thanks Kaj and Ikka for the explainations.

Had to read it couple of time, but it make even sense to me

 

[Ilkka R]

Kaj, I hope you don't mind me posting parts of our email conversation here? It would help people to understand this matter better...


-------------------------------------------------
>That is why you can actually compare my graphs to see how much
>louder/'hotter' a movie is, compared to another.
>
>But the thing is, why I am able to do this is, and why you should be able
>to
>do similar is that most movies, by DTS and DD standards, are meant to be
>mixed at certain volume levels,
>
>So that if, for example, you took The Haunting, Underworld and Toy Story 2.
>And say all of these had dialog recorded at -20dB. If I measured the
>speaking in each movie, they should all, with out changing any settings,
>measure in at around -20dB
>

Yes, this would the optimum situation, but that's not how it is. :frowning:

Think about the overall level of the movie, dialog + everything else. DD uses -27dBFS dialog normalization, so playing what ever movie, the dialog should measure around 80dB. But in real life some movies are mastered WAY hotter than others. Take Underworld for example. Edward JM has estimated around 12-13dB. And this means the overall level, not just LFE or bass generally. Take Star Wars I for another example. It's mastered at "correct level".

Now you are playing these movies at reference level. Meaning 0dB MV setting.

What do you get? Underword is beeing played around 15dB ABOVE RL! Everything in that movie is around 12dB louder than in SW I, dialogue, bass, LFE, everything. But that doesn't mean that the difference between dialogue and
highest bass peak is any different. They are just mastered at different overall level. If you graph these movies with the same settings, result is that Underworld has way more pink than SW I. And that is not the case in real life. SW 1's bass peaks can be just as loud, relative to dialogue, as in Underworld. So when you are correcting this 12dB level error, you get real results. That's why I adjust the volume setting. More for those movies that are cold and off from those which are hot.


>So you should be able to actually compare my charts side by side, to see
>which one may be mixed 'hotter' than another, or to see which one has
>louder
>effects at 20hz compared to another movie etc.

Yes, but the only thing you can see is the overall mastering level. You can't tell if that blob at 20Hz is loud or not. Of course if it's pink, it's loud, but if some other movie has a red blob at 20Hz, that can be EQUALLY
loud, that particular movie is just mastered say 5dB's lower. So you can't compare charts made from two movies, because you don't know at which level they are mastered. Movies should have some sort of test signal which would
represent the average dialog level. Then we could just calibrate this level at same with every movie and we would see which movie has the loudest bass relative to dialogue. At this time, we just don't know it.

One thing also. Mastering levels between DD and DTS can be big. I have noticed that it's almost a rule that DTS is mastered atleast 3-5dB louder than DD. (and also receiver doesn't attenuate DTS by 4dB) Is the bass in DTS track louder? Not nessecarily. The overall level is just louder and using your technique, it would seem that the DTS has more pink.

>Maybe there is something I am still not doing right with my setup, but so
>far Titan AE, Riddick, LOTR, The Day After Tomorrow, Toy Story 2, Chesky's
>Weird Surround Show etc. have all been created identically and things seem
>to turn out ok..

Well, have you checked those movies using your HT-system? Of course if you play them all at same level, say -10RL, of course the one that has most pink, sounds loudest. But what about if you adjust the volume so that all movies have same dialog level?

I made few quick examples for you.

Here is first scene from TS2. I used 0dB setting so only thing that is affecting the level is the Windows mixer level. It's same for all examples.
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkk...hs/ts2_0db.jpg

Another example is from the Haunting. Again, same level settings used.
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkk...unting_0db.jpg

Which movie has more louder bass? It would seem that the Haunting but is that the case? No, the Haunting may have a little louder bass, but not much.

Its overall mastering level is about 8dB louder than in TS2. That makes the difference.

For this graph I boosted the level by 8dB's (I just shifted the spectrum).
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkk...hs/ts2_8db.jpg

Now it looks more real.

Hope this helps!

-Ilkka
----------------------------------------

 

[Kaj]

You could have just said it was a conversation you had with *someone* (unknown) at a previous time;
That way you don't have to show my earlier ignorance of what i used to think i understood

nah, its good

Cheers
KJ

 

[Ilkka R]

I thought you could handle it.

I just checked Matrix Revolutions. Nice bass (17-25Hz) all around. Also I checked Saving Private Ryan. There is a lot of pink, but it's around 35-50Hz. Almost no bass below 30Hz. I'll show few charts later.

 

[Edward J M]

I've been bitching for years about the relative differences in mastering levels on DVDs. It's finally catching on, and you guys are doing a fabulous job corroborating this with actual analysis of spectral charts ripped directly from DVDs.

This problem diminishes the whole concept of calibrating to Dolby Reference Level with Avia. While I still strongly support this practice as a benchmark we can all adhere to, the only way to tell if you are really playing back at RL is with a sound meter. :frowning:

A more widespread acceptance and understanding of this phenomenon would really help the people who say "I blew up my XYZ brand subwoofer on SW-ATOC at 5 clicks under Reference Level - this thing is a POS." Well......at -5 on the master volume, you were probably 5-7 dB OVER true Reference Level on this particular DVD.

To add insult to injury, SW-PM is mastered almost spot-on and really can be played at/near MV 0.0 and this will result in near RL playback.

 

[Ilkka R]

Ed, you're quessing SW-AOTC is 10-12dB hot? I would say 6-8dB. Based on my charts. But anyways, way to hot to be played at RL.

 

[steve nn]

This problem diminishes the whole concept of calibrating to Dolby Reference Level with Avia. While I still strongly support this practice as a benchmark we can all adhere to, the only way to tell if you are really playing back at RL is with a sound meter.

When a guy picks up a new disk and plugs it in, it's always a wonder what level it was mastered at. The range is quit incredible really if you think about it. -7 on choice (A) will have the same MV playback as choice (B) at -18....With the advancement in the HT arena lately, they really do need to get their act/heads together on this.

 

[Gordon Groff]

Hey, I'm WITH you guys re:comparing levels of sources mixed and played back at differing levels! . Was thinking the same, but stayed lurking. It's all relative.

Can anyone do "We Were Soldiers"? I used the "Broken Arrow" scene where the bombers were called in right on top of the command position when they were being overrun to "qualify" my subwooferage. It brought a SVS Ultra to it's knees. (Of course I was pushing it with a lot of watts and running it hot too). I ended up with a pair of Ultra's with 1000 watts to each to pass my Broken Arrow test.

FWIW, I consider WWS my all time favorite war movie - over Saving Private Ryan, et al. Gotta love Mel Gibson!

Anyway, I'd love to see the plots of that scene if anyone is interested.

Gordon

 

[KeithY]

We Were Soldiers-Broken Arrow
This is the scene where the bomb produces the spiraling fire and smoke

 

[Ilkka R]

We Were Soldiers (R2 PAL DTS 5.1)

Chapter 14. "Broken arrow"







Copyright Ilkka R
-------------------------

Here you go Gordon Freem..!

 

[Gordon Groff]

Wow! You guys are incredible!! You picked exactly the spots that KICK some bass! I can't believe how quickly y'all posted this! Thanks!!

It's SO COOL to see charted what I've been hearing!

I set my system up with tones down to 10zh (dangerous to do!) and don't believe in filters , so had to go to some serious power and wooferage to get there without breaking anything.

The spot at 1:33:xx with the strong 10hz hit is what I used to push my subs to find thier limits. This is the test I came up with: Run this scene on a calibrated system at 0db on the master volume.

Kept adding woofs and watts until I could do this without the "CLACK" of death or lose the "impact" of the hits. That's how I ended up 2000 watts into 2 SVS Ultras. It was an expensive test. :b

There is some nice sub-30hz stuff here! I honestly think it is the best-mixed soundtrack of any movie I've seen. Besides being a great movie!

Thanks!!

Gordon

 

[terence]

Ok 1st i now have a cleaer picture on comparisons with dvd MVL, thx guys!

So would you say SW-PM is the standard that all movies should be mastered at?

I always thought SW-PM was well balnced across the board far as sound. If only the PQ of SW-PM looked as great as SW-AOTC the movie disc presentation would be reference.

I also notice that a lot of you guys MV levels start from -? to 00dbs or -10 to +10. My MV starts at -00db and one turn it jumps to -115 ends at 0db. Now RL after calibrating the MV (RL) is -21.5, so it's hard to relate my MV to a lot of you guys MV levels. Weird.

Geoff,

I can't beleive i forgot about "We Were Soldiers" great call!

Wow! You guys are incredible!! You picked exactly the spots that KICK some bass! I can't believe how quickly y'all posted this! Thanks!!

It's SO COOL to see charted what I've been hearing!

Took the words right off my keyboard.

 

[Ilkka R]

So would you say SW-PM is the standard that all movies should be mastered at?

Yes and three Matrix's also. There are also few others, but most of todays movies are mastered too hot.

 

[Edward J M]

Ed, you're quessing SW-AOTC is 10-12dB hot? I would say 6-8dB. Based on my charts. But anyways, way to hot to be played at RL.

Total guesstimate, going from memory. Really more to illustrate that even DVDs in a series suffer from this malady - SW-PM is mastered much cooler than SW-ATOC. It's just ridiculous.

I mean what would happen if you were watching SW-PM at/near MV 0.0. Then you popped in SW-AOTC at the same MV setting and the THX Cavalcade trailer comes on....and kaboom.....there goes your subwoofer, your ears, and your heart in your throat.

I'd be pretty upset if that DVD caught me off guard, especially since it's #2 in a series. It's not too much to expect DVDs (at least Dolby Digital releases) to be mastered at exactly the same level.....there should be an industry standard.

 

[terence]

mean what would happen if you were watching SW-PM at/near MV 0.0. Then you popped in SW-AOTC at the same MV setting and the THX Cavalcade trailer comes on....and kaboom.....there goes your subwoofer, your ears, and your heart in your throat.

That what happen to me with my old AR subs, i was thinking surely SW-AOTC would be the same as SW-PM far as volume. Boy was i wrong, i could not reach for the volume fast enuff.

 

[terence]

there should be an industry standard.

It would be nice to have a standard, but i doubt it will ever happen.

What guys think about the first LOTR DD release? I thought it was a great sounding movie. But it is on the loud side, there is no way i would attemp near RL with this one.