Freezing Cables and Electronics Can Improve Sound (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

Ed Meitner's interview and link from HiFi News and Record Review is working again, so I thought people here might have an interest

http://www.emmlabs.com/

click on "Technical"

select "Freezing Issue"

We experimented with interconnects and heard a difference but I am sure some will derail this into a DBT debate.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well this line did it for me...

A friend of mine in Boston has a big cryogenic facility and one female customer sends in cheap pantyhose for treatment because they run less!'

 

[Bob McElfresh]

If you guys are so bored that you want to drag these ... issues out of the closet, go ahead. Just dont let things get personal or emotional.




(I hate re-run season)

 

[John.Meer]

Cryogenic treatment is the "ultimate tweak" in the metallurgy world. At least it generally doesn't hurt anything...

 

[Kevin C Brown]

This is B.S. When you cool something down that low, there's no energy available for any atomic re-arrangement. This was reported in Stereophile maybe a year ago, and it was blatently false back then, and it's blatently false now too. Solid state physics and diffusion kinetics, and grain growth/recrystalization.

He is also missing a key component, when talking about steel fabrication, the "quenching" process is conducted *from* the high temperature molten state. Not freaking room temperature.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

This is B.S. When you cool something down that low, there's no energy available for any atomic re-arrangement.

So much for not getting personal or emotional...

Kevin, I think you need to back up your statement with evidence from the metallurgy world. This is a documented process and Ed Meitner is a very well respected electrical engineer. I'm inclined to trust him based on the work he has done in the past with Chesky Records and his published work as well.

 

[Chu Gai]

Think Ed would trot this out at an AES meeting? And what cooling does, if it's a quench, is to 'lock' in a particular crystal structure from the melt or semi-molten state. If it's going to change after that, it won't be in your lifetime.

But I think you've brought this up before and like most claims for audibility, it's big on analogies and short on substance.

BTW, if low temperatures were of sufficient energy to permit molecular rearrangement, how do you explain different crystal structures of minerals and elements that come from space. Certainly 8-12 billion years of quenching ought to be enough time to come to some sort of final equilbrium don't you think?

 

[DanaA]

Am I the only one here who uses my freezer as my equipment rack?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Cryogenic treatment doesn't change the frequency of that resonance, it just changes its Q [damping]

This makes sense to me as well - Cardas and Bill Low of Audioquest have explained the importance of damping factors on sonics (Q).

 

[Brian OK]

I certainly don't understand what cryogenic treated audio components undergo in terms of structural changes, or alterations, during the deep freeze process. Some say the back-to room temp process is just as important. And some swear by the deep double cryo process (Cyogenics International in AZ, for instance) vs the 8-12 hour dip.

All I know is the not so suble improvements I have heard when I placed said cryo'd products into my audio chain. Hubbell outlets and AC plugs, DVD/AC cord adapters, Bolder Cable's new Bybee RCA purifiers--- all cryo'd products I use in my setup.

I downplay the sonic improvements because cat-fights usually breakout upon such bold/non DBT statements. That's fair enough. Audio is ultimately fairly personal when the glitter fades away, and one is sitting alone in the spot at night.

But to dismiss cryo altogether is, IMHO, missing out on some incredible audio improvements. I was floored when I put in my cryo'd outlets, and amazed when the two cryo'd Bybee RCA purifiers where installed on both ends of my digital coax. Sometimes, one simply cannot throw science at an issue because it wandered into audio Main Street without license.
my .02

BOK

 

[Chu Gai]

not dismissing it but keep in mind this is a person who does present at various AES meetings and does so with experimental data, measurements, protocols, etc. that can be examined for rigorousness and duplicated by the attendants. instead what we have is some hack writer lobbing softballs.

That Meitner would choose to tarnish whatever reputation he may have by foisting this upon the public, in light of no proof whatsoever is reminincent of...

1)Nancy Reagan's belief in astrology
2)Prince Charles requesting government funding into homeopathic preparations
3)Hospitals allowing 'aura manipulators' into their buildings.
4)Various US Senators pushing for funds into psychic research.
5)Oprah and John Edwards.
6)What about the tweak I posted about amber beads having a positive effect?

This is done for one and one reason. To curry favor with credophiles and to have them loosen their grip on their credit cards. Nothing more.

Think about it Lee. A claim is being made that nothing about a cable has changed. Neither L, C, nor R are of any significant difference. Postulations are made about diodic effects even though the signal that goes in is not DC. The implication is that one's created some sort of rectifier. And if not that, then claims are being made for the existence of distortions that can't be measured (and it's been tried Lee) for if they exist, they're below the noise floor of the instruments. It's not just remarkable, it's a phenomenal leap of faith to state that distortions that can't be measured result in not just audible differences, but audible preferences.

Trotting Cardas out there, who can barely use an oscilloscope, to bolster Meitner, to me, is insulting to Meitner. Just as insulting as the picture of Dukakis in an Army tank. IMHO of course.

Remarkable claims need more to stand on than what's been served up here. you who have some experience in science and logic ought to know better than asking me to prove a negative Lee. After all, can you prove you've never beaten your children? If you make the claim, the onus is on proving it. That's the way science works. To be associated with the like of Fleishman & Pons is nothing to be proud of.

I don't begrudge, you or anyone for buying what they want. I do have issues with claims that can't be substantiated. Not so much the individuals, but those who ask for your hard earned money and offer nothing in the way of proof. The methodology is out there. Not using it, does nothing more than make one a card carrying member of the Dowsing Society.

it's a telling thing to me that this little thing is buried (and with typos) somewhat deep on the website. Sometimes, dead is bettah

As a side note, I posted the following on sci.engr.metallurgy.

This is the funny spot of the week in Materials Science.

"Very erratic latice structure"

BS

"'If you treat the material at low temperatures, where the strength of the atomic bonds starts to diminish it reverts to the natural crystal structure."

Completely false. There is often a rise in elastic modulus as temperature falls which reflects upon slight diminishment of the thermal forces attempting to move atoms apart and thereby diminish the interatomic attraction.

The audio field has long bought bogus "enhancements" with the fervor of golf addicts looking for magic clubs.

When the CD first came out, there were people selling small stick-on ring weights to add mass so as to diminish "wow" in the rotating mechanisms. The maximum anti"WOW" ring would have been added to the outer perimeter. These were added to the inner perimeter where they were the least effective of all.

If it makes you happy, by all means, buy whaterer is the latest "power toy".

Meitner, the 'interviewer', Cardas, etc. are out of their areas of expertise. At least Dr. Bose knows what an ohm is.

 

[Dave Poehlman]

I've found giving my components a good, long soak in warm, soapy water yielded significant improvement.

 

[JohnFF]

You gotta talk to your cables. They have feelings too and you can't expect them to perform to their peak potential if you don't say a few kind words to them from time to time.

 

[Bob McElfresh]

Admin Note:I realize this topic is controversial. But I would hope we would respect each other enough to keep the comments on-topic. It's ok to disagree, post questions, give opinions on the science/topic, but lets not make attacks on people who do believe. This includes resisting the urge to make humerous posts. Please help keep HTF about respect.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I don't begrudge, you or anyone for buying what they want. I do have issues with claims that can't be substantiated.

Ed has evidence of the damping factor changing which changes the sonics. That's a very real and reasonable conclusion.

Does your statement mean it is not valid simply because he is yet to submit an AES paper?

I think we are better off to keep an open mind and discuss the possible scientific reasons why cryo could improve the sound. There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that anything different here must be junk audio science.

 

[Chu Gai]

wanna put some money on his skill with a 'scope?

all that aside though, the link you provided isn't so much as an interview with Ed, as it was that writer rambling on. Meitner's in there almost as an afterthought.