freezing AC cords? (1 Viewer)

[Chu Gai]

Good holidays to you and yours Lee as we relect upon the difference that brave men and women have made in defense of our country which allows us to air our points of view on this forum.

 

[Mark Tranchant]

Chu,
What was the result? Did your debating partners manage to pick out the treated CD?

 

[Chu Gai]

Mark: Personally I think it'd be a very interesting test. I myself, don't know if burning 3 copies is kosher but for the cost of 3 CD's and some postage and of course the requisite email, it'd make for a bit of fun and perhaps some knowledge. Figure a day for listening and then pop it off into the post office box to the next HTF member (3 days for mail delivery), we'd be looking at about 90 data points. I didn't propose it because I won't do it. I'm game.

 

[Rob Roth]

I agree with Chu Gai and others that the refrigerator tweak is unlikely to provide any lasting , beneficial changes. Not lasting because the temperature delta is not that great, and will vanish after a period of system use. Probably not beneficial because even if some performance parameter is temporarily altered it is not at all clear that the change is good (as measured by such criteria as flat response, etc.).

We have all had the novice's experience of changing cables and immediately reporting "hearing new detail in the high end (better midrange presence, deeper/tighter bass, you fill in the blanks)" Of course what has happened is that the new cable accentuates certain frequencies- possibly at the expense of others. Whether this result is a good thing or simply an effect similar to turning a tone control is something we each need to answer honestly. Many of us become so neurotic that we are infatuated with any "change"- regardless of its provenance or cost.

But Lee S is correct on the larger point when he says that just because we can't measure phenomena doesn't mean the phenomena don't exist. As Robert Harley says in another context, the present set of 'measurements' were designed decades ago to evaluate specific design parameters important at that time. They may still be important, but they do not fully define the universe of potentially useful metrics and phenomena. I could provide you with several examples from my experience as a hardware design EE at Cray Research, but I'll refer once again to Harley's account of "jitter". In the early days of CD, all the 'measurements' proved that the sound of 16/44 exceeded human capability of hearing. Stubborn audiophiles insisted that it sounded bad (and it did). Eventually, the Chu Gais of the world discovered jitter, how to measure it, and how to alleviate it.

So in my view we need both art and science, both subjective and objective knowledge, to move the boundaries of performance. The two approaches inform one another: Without the science we'd be unable to quantify, replicate and improve Quality, without the art we wouldn't now what Quality is.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

the refrigerator tweak is unlikely to provide any lasting , beneficial changes.

Just to be clear, I said I have never heard a substantial difference with cryogenically frozen CDs. I have never heard any refridgerated CDs period. It seems you would have to go lower to change molecular structure enough to create any sound differences, if even then. So I am not debating that this works; I am just saying we need to keep our minds open for things science can not explain.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well, there are psychological explanations but often those require a preliminary expectation by the subject. Recall that company some years back that did those infomercials about this device that you'd hold in your hand and then place on your knee, shoulder, wrist, etc., squeeze, and then the people would say how their pain went away? They were shut down by the gov't. Turns out there wasn't anything in there. Fines might've been levied, but I don't recall.

Lee: for the purposes of science, and mind you now, you get a chance to listen as you wish, is there any reason, that 3 CD's couldn't be burned such that each were identical? We could include a musical passage or two...even some computer generated tones between 1-6 kHz, the region where most of us are most sensitive. People can listen on their speakers...their headphones. Maybe even both and write down which one sounded different using each listening method. I'll freeze one, or if you wish you'll do it and freeze one. Then we'll let the package make the rounds of the HTF membership. We can even be sports and let the administrators and owners do it too! The results can be published after say 30 or so listens. Now I'm willing to let my mind open to this. What say you?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Then again, we haven't really touched on whether the hybrid plant capacity has improved enough to allow Universal the ability to deliver all new titles as hybrids and it makes for a very shaky piece of information at best.

No of course I won't do this. Did you not read my last post???

Do you have access to cryogenic freezing?
Do you have an escrow service that can verify the test parameters?

I am not interested in this because I don't yet fully understand the science.

I suggest you challenge Ed Meitner. He will be at the Home Entertainment Show in NYC 2002.

You should go - it was a blast last year. Looks like some major Super Audio announcements are gearing up.

Let me know if you see Bob Stuart. Ask him when the Super Audio CD player is out.

 

[Chu Gai]

Ummm Lee, what's that quote in reference to?
I'll look for Ed and see about speaking to him and try to get it down on tape.
My questions weren't rhetorical Lee and hoped you'd give them an answer. But in anticipation that Ed will be demonstrating his big freeze, I shall bring both a burned CD down and purchase three CD's and hope that Ed will indulge in their chilling. Hopefully the process won't affect the surfaces visually. I'd hate it if there were visual clues. Perhaps then you'd be of a mindset to participate in an evaluation for you seem to give some possible credence to the benefits of cryogenic treatment. If not, perhaps others will care to participate in this rather unusual investigation. After all here we are combining art (freezing if you will...albeit without any sort of published studies or parameters yet with claims) with a study that will determine if such a treatment results in either an audible difference with perhaps a qualifying answer by the participants that its an improved difference. If there is a statistical difference...wonderful, let's study it and find a way to optimize it. If there isn't it, let's toss it in the crapper. We can turn belief into knowledge. Perhaps we can even draw upon the esteemed Mr. Harley to lend us the benefit of his ears. He's a tricky fellow though and i'd love to have a 'skeptic' observe his actions.

 

[Rob Roth]

Not to pour gasoline on a smoldering fire, but I did have the opportunity to speak with a materials guy at Carnegie Mellon. He says cryo work is a hot area in his field right now. In electronics applications he cited work on improving conductive directivity (fewer eddy currents at the molecular boundaries= less resitivity). The other hot area is in laminates; evidently if you subject successive layers of material to different "temperatures of formation" you can get greater strength, plasticity, ductility, etc. kind of like plywood.

I think what really happened with the refrigerator tweak is some inspired, but sloppy, extrapolation from a lay understanding of superconductor research. If a lot of cold is a great thing, maybe a little cold is at least a good thing. Maybe we should form a company and market an "audiophile refrigerator" with various compartments at different temps. for the dedicated tweakers. we could also sell lots of specialized cables since the tweaker would have to replace the ones in his/her system every hour or so with freshly cooled replacments.

 

[Chu Gai]

can we include humidity control? we could keep the refrigeration unit separate since separating should reduce noise. hey, i don't dispute that the physical characteristics of the disc can become changed as for example the formation of microscopic cracks. maybe that's causing the error correction circuitry to kick in all the time, huh? well, we could always get 3M to come up with some polishing cloths that do the same thing...finely scratch the CD. But that is putting the cart before the horse. First establish the verifiable audibility change to the treatment and then postulate the cause. Vary things...repeat. If Meitzner can't accomodate me, I know someone who works at Murray Hills and can duplicate whatever the conditions are.

 

[Alf S]

Will this thread never die??
It seems we have milked this topic way beyond it's usefullness.

 

[John Sturge]

If you want to cryo treat your cables...
Link Removed

 

[Chu Gai]

strange pricing structure don't you think....$13/pound...do cables weigh that much?

 

[John Sturge]

Uh, Chu, that price is for electrical parts.

Ewww, they use paypal....