FP is definitely for me; Have tons of questions!

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Mitch Stevens, Nov 2, 2003.

  1. Mitch Stevens

    Mitch Stevens Supporting Actor

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    Some of you may have read my thoughts on the X1 during the free "evaluation" period. I saw the screen door effect, and I quickly gave up on FP altogether. After I slept on the idea that FP was "evil" (because of the SDE) I decided to give it just one more try.

    This time, I put the white sheet on a different wall, and sat even further away than I did the first time. I was sitting exactly 16 feet away from a 115" (16x9 Screen). The results were absolutely MIND BLOWING! I am a true believer in FP now. I can still see screen door effect from 16 feet away, but only when a movie shows white. Any sort of white (ie. clouds, flash-lights, etc.) Other than the SDE which I can see about 10% of the time now, I am truly in love with this projector. I also have an issue with the black colors though, but more on that a little bit later.

    I have a question though. I hooked up my DVD player via S-Video because I don't have that adapter that it requires in order to hook it up via Component. The picture quality was simply astounding. JAW-DROPPING! It looked just like a theatrical experience. Now here is where it gets really weird. I popped in a VHS tape and started watching VHS and it too, looked A M A Z I N G! I don't understand how this could be. At 125" (4:3 mode) VHS should have looked awful! Is there something wrong with the projector, or is there something wrong with my HDTV?

    I have a Mits 65" Widescreen HDTV. Sony NS700P DVD player hooked up through Component cables. Have watched hundreds of DVDs and VHS on it, and here is what I have noticed.

    VHS looks "alright." No where near as good as it looks on the X1.

    DVD looks simply jaw-dropping on some DVDs while on others it looks completely unwatchable. For example, "Charlie's Angels 2," "Willard," "2 Fast 2 Furious," & the original "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" all looked HORRIBLE on my TV. Absolutely horrendous. While other titles look amazing (ie. Matrix Reloaded.)

    Viewing those titles on the FP (115" Widescreen) they looked incredible. FAR better than what they looked on my HDTV. Even the worst "unwatchable DVD" which was "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" looked stunning on the FP.

    Here is the question: Is the X1 FP actually covering up important detail like compression artifacts, mosquito noise, ect. because it is not an HD projector, or is there something major wrong with my HDTV? With my TV, I notice all sorts of problems with certain DVDs. I can easily see compression artifacts, etc, which I can not see AT ALL on the projector. Maybe the projector is hiding all of these artifacts or my TV is actually introducing them on it's own. Maybe these artifacts are not even there to begin with. Using the X1, even the WORST titles looked "reference" quality however, I want to purchase a different one, and I need your guys' help.

    I want a projector that will give me roughly the same size image that I was viewing with the X1. I want AT LEAST 115" Widescreen but would "prefer" 150" Widescreen. I also want a projector with a better "black" level because most of the blacks looked "gray" on the X1. I also want the projector to have closer pixels (isn't that what causes the "screen door effect?") Does DLP (Like the X1) have pixels that "die" like LCD FP do? Which "type" of projector is better/best for my needs?

    Oh, and I would "prefer" to have a short-throw projector, but it's not 100% necessary. I had to put the X1 SOOOOOO far away in order for it to create an image that size. If I wanted a larger image (ie. 150") I simply would run out of room before it actually projected an image that size since my room does not allow it.

    Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    You're asking quite a bit from an 800x600 (800x450 widescreen) projector if you want a 150" image. You can obviously expect to see pixels (SDE) in that case.

     
  3. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    Well, at the screen sizes you are contemplating, I would be looking to the Sanyo PLV70 @ 2200 a.l. (if I remember right) and a 900:1 contrast ratio. It has a much greater resolution with native 16x9 panels (1366x768). I agree that a svga projector stretched to that screen size would be undesireable.
     
  4. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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    Right-On, Neil!
    Anothe great option for that size would be the JVC-?x21 Dila. It's got good brightness, great resolution and smoothness. Black levels are reported mediocre, though. The higher-resolution DLP's might be an option, but I'm not too familiar with them and light output at the size you are looking for might be a concern.

    I've got the PLV-70 and find the black levels very good to excellent. You want to sit about 1.5 the screen width away to avoid seeing screendoor.

    If you go with the Sanyo PLV-70, a couple tips I learned the hard way:

    1. Get a DaLite High Power screen. It seems counter-intuitive to go with a hi gain screen for this very bright PJ, but it really works and is very cost-effective.

    2. Grab a Bravo D1 DVD player ($200) and run DVI cabling to your PJ. It's a pretty poor player overall, but it's DVI output is stunning on the PLV-70. Far better than any component hookup.

    3. Calibrate. Get Avia and do a careful job on the brightness/contrast settings. This will make your blacks look GREAT and your color really pop.

    Good luck!!

    Gordon
     
  5. Mitch Stevens

    Mitch Stevens Supporting Actor

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    I did a bit of searching for reviews of the Sanyo PLV70 recommended here. It sounds fantastic, however it has to be put even FURTHER away than the X1 and I simply do not have that space available in my room. My room is exactly 19'x20' but I don't even have a ceiling. I have a qrid that has squares to make up the ceiling. I CAN NOT mount a projector to the squares no matter what, so the projector has to be placed on a table or chair or something else.

    I found a calculator that calculates the distance needed in order for the Sanyo fp to achive 115" (widescreen) which is exactly the same size I'm getting with the X1 at 17 feet away, the Sanyo needs to be 19.5 feet away. There's no way in hell I'd ever reach an image any bigger than that, unless I put the projector outside.

    Any other suggestions?

    Gordon, what's the exact model number of the JVC?
     
  6. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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    Hi Mitch. yeah, the PLV-70 is "long throw". I don't know a lot about other options. You may want to visit www.avsforum.com and head to their "high end digital projectors over $3500" section. You'll find threads about the JVC unit and other options.
    I'm not sure if it is PC to refer someone to another forum from here, but I don't have a good answer for you. Maybe someone else can chime in?

    Gordon
     
  7. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    We're missing one key ingredient and that is budget. How much are you willing to spend on the pj?
     
  8. Mitch Stevens

    Mitch Stevens Supporting Actor

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    I am willing to spend up to $5,000 but not a penny more. And this also has to include the screen.
     
  9. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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  10. andy_brehm

    andy_brehm Stunt Coordinator

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    gordon,

    i have been debating the screen point my self. hopefully within the next couple of months i will be the proud owner of a x1 and i am considering my options for which to project on. right now i am at home which means all my equipment has to fit in my room and i already have a 61" panny taking up the entire back wall with the help of my speakers. i was wondering if i could use something like a sheet to project on for the time being and hang it in front of my tv so i could still use it. then, when i get more money, and move out next summer i can look towards better options as a legit screen. do you have any recomendations?
     
  11. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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    You could consider a DaLite model C that is a self-contained rollup that you could hang the case from the ceiling in front of your RPTV. You could hang a homemade, but be careful with wrinkles and waves. Screens ARE a big part of PQ for a projector, so if you can swing a "real" one, it might save you money in the long run unless you do some pretty thourough research to build your own.
    Good luck!
    Gordon
     
  12. andy_brehm

    andy_brehm Stunt Coordinator

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    why do you suggest the model C? I have been looking at the model C and model B and the model B is much cheaper ($162 compared to $3xx) for the 84x84" screen. just wondering what makes the model C so much better.

    thanks
     
  13. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    That's a pretty huge size you want there. I'd throw in the CRT idea at 5K, but that size is really pushing it.
     
  14. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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  15. andy_brehm

    andy_brehm Stunt Coordinator

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    chris-i have heard some people say that they have viewed an X1 on a 106" screen, and though they said it probably wouldnt be wise to go any larger it still looked alright. realistically i am thinking about a 100" screen so i guess it would be 60x80" in stead of 84x84". do you still think this is too large?

    gordon-i was thinking about getting a high contrast grey screen since i have heard they are supposed to help give the picture a better contrast. honestly i dont know much about screens at all, so any adivse is appreciated.

    thanks all

    andy
     
  16. Scott Dautel

    Scott Dautel Second Unit

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    You can't simply talk about screen size without also talking about viewing distance (i.e. distance from eyes to screen for nearest seated person). There are three key points to understand ....

    1) As you project a larger image, you need to sit farther away. If you sit too close, you will likely become annoyed by individual pixel resolution (i.e screen-door effect). Also, as your field of vision widens (closer), you are more likely to see DLP rainbows (probably due to more eye movement).

    2) Of course, projector resolution also is a major factor (i.e. assuming 20/20 vision, you can sit closer to a higher-res projector). Based on my experiences, as an example ... lets say we are talking about a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen ... with an SVGA projector (like the InFocus X1), the viewers eyes would need to be no closer than 11 feet from the screen. HOWEVER, if you had a newer projector Using the TI Mustang HD2 DLP image engine (such as in the InFocus ScreenPlay 7200), you could be as close as 6.9 feet away.

    3) the third factor is projector type (DLP vs LCD vs CRT). Screen-door effect is more obvious with LCD, due to pixel fill factor. As such, you need to be about 25% further away for most LCD PJs. The exception is the Panny L300/L200 units, which are comparable to the [minimal] SDE of DLPs due to the Panny "Smooth Screen Technology" (refractive crystal device). CRT is better still, since there are no "pixels". Rather horizontal scan lines are the limiting consideration (but for 1080i, you can get very close, by comparison)

    Also, please be aware that as you increase the size of the image, a darker room becomes more & more important, particularly for shadow detail. For me, I would forget about FP larger than 80" diag in a room with any ambient light (like a living room) unless you plan to use blackout shades extensively. Most of these projetors put out 700-1100 max lumens (and less in "video" mode). You can imagine when you are spreading these lumens over a large area, you lose brightness quickly (also effected by screen gain). My X1 is 1100 lumens on an 80"x45" screen and I insist on 95%+ darkness to get decent shadow detail. Just for the record ... a 42" screen is 5.2 sq.ft. of area vs. a 96" screen, which is 27.4 sq.ft. (>5x larger... & thus, 1/5th as bright by comparison)

    Scott
     
  17. andy_brehm

    andy_brehm Stunt Coordinator

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    scott-thanks for your detailed input on the screen, that helps out a lot. when i first get the projector, it will be going in a room that only has one window, and that one will have a shade over it. when i move, im making a home theater room, so it will have no windows so i should be fine on darkness. the 100" screen will be far too big for the room that i will have the projector in now as i will only be 10 feet away from the screen, maybe more. but the when i move ill have more room so im going to buy a screen that i can use there to instead of getting a screen that fits my current room, then getting a larger one when i move.

    i have heard about crt projectors a bit, but can find anything on them on projectorcentral.com from my understanding they are not digital correct? if they give a better picture, why are more people not using them, are they more expensive? the reason i am going with the x1 is because i am on a very limited budget
     
  18. Gordon Groff

    Gordon Groff Second Unit

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  19. Dave_Olds

    Dave_Olds Stunt Coordinator

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  20. Scott Dautel

    Scott Dautel Second Unit

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    I used the exact same links Dave has posted above for a DIY screen using white "drapery blackout fabric". I then hung my new screen in front of my old RPTV via hooks in the ceiling & brass chains.
    My guests cant believe this is DIY. The whole thing cost me $25 & I cant get motivated to spend more on a Dalite pulldown, but I probably will for convenience.

    Actually, I have my CC speaker behind the screen. I was tempted to order some acoustically transparent screen material and "upgrade". Regrettably, you cant get the performated screen material in a manual pulldown screen.

    Scott
     

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