Four more from Criterion (1 Viewer)

[Damin J Toell]

Based on this. See for yourself. BTW, after I saw the above comparison, I did pick up the cheaper R2 disk, and the transfer is breathtaking.

The colors on the discs are certainly different, but without an external point of reference, I don't see how it has been decided that the R2 color is "right" while the Criterion color is "wrong." Not every film's color scheme is supposed to match up to our expectations of skin tones and the like. I see it as being just as possible that Criterion got it right while the R2 disc got it wrong.

DJ

 

[Roderick Gauci]

Quote (originally posted by Ted Todorov):

"Don't get me wrong -- love Criterion -- I have 50 of their DVDs, but they don't have a divine right to being the best -- they have to earn it with each individual DVD."

I agree completely, Ted. Criterion is NOT infallible: with all the wealth of enlightening supplements included on their Box Set EISENSTEIN: THE SOUND YEARS, the ALEXANDER NEVSKY (1938) disc is still an eyesore, with a blatanly unrestored print - despite Criterion's claims of a "Gorgeous new digital transfer, with extensive image and sound restoration"!

In any case, I have the recent R0 PAL disc of STRAW DOGS (1971) by Fremantle Media and, though it appears that edition still has the edge, so far, with considerably more supplements (some of which would seem to be duplicated outright onto the Criterion version), I would still love to hear critic Stephen Prince’s take on the film – he did the fascinating Audio Commentary for the Criterion release of Akira Kurosawa’s RED BEARD (1965).

I’m not sure what such featurettes as “Dustin Hoffman on the set of STRAW DOGS” and “Behind-the-scenes footage” entail, but I would say they will be covering more or less the same ground as did the ‘On Location’ TV documentary found on the U.K. disc. Still, the latter being considerably cheaper than Criterion's usual prices, I have no qualms about purchasing it - indeed, I'd go so far as to give it my vote for DVD of the year!

More importantly, perhaps, I can’t help feeling let down by the utterly lackluster features prepared by Criterion for Bresson’s wonderful LES DAMES DU BOIS DE BOULOGNE (1945). Not only very little supplements per se, but I even suspect that the couple of essays mentioned will be printed on the fold-out sleeve rather than included on the disc itself - a bloody disgrace, if you ask me! Owning the film already on a pricey original PAL VHS, I don’t see much incentive there for an upgrade to DVD!!

 

[Rain]

Based on this.

Yes, I've seen those faded-looking, lifeless R2 captures.

I'll stick with the Criterion DVD that Robert Harris endorsed.

 

[Jean-Michel]

I'll stick with the Criterion DVD that Robert Harris endorsed.

Out of curiousity, do you have a link to this?

I should also like to point out that the Criterion Straw Dogs specs aren't finalized yet.

 

[Rain]

Out of curiousity, do you have a link to this?

Sure thing.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...ris111202.html

 

[Jean-Michel]

While Mr. Harris' imprimatur is never a bad thing, there's nothing in that piece to suggest he's even familiar with the R2, much less undertaken a comparison between the two. I've seen both of them, and while I admit I haven't exactly looked at either of them with a great deal of scrutiny it seems pretty clear that, knowing what I know, the R2 is the better transfer. I qualify that statement because for all I know Powell and Pressburger wanted the film to have a heavy red tint throughout and the Criterion (as can plainly be seen from the captures) represents that much better than the Carlton. However, red tint aside, the Criterion loses a substantial amount of detail present in the R2 (captures 4 and 5 of Gary's comparison illustrate this quite well), and the colors in general are less vibrant despite the additional tint. Calling the R2 "lifeless" is unfair to say the least.

If Mr. Harris is here and paying attention, perhaps he would be willing to answer a couple of questions, namely whether or not he is familiar with the R2 and the nature of the red tint on the Criterion (i.e., intentional vs. unintentional -- I've seen a number of older films that have taken on a red tint with age, but I don't know enough about the technical side of things to say with authority whether or not that applies here).

 

[Rain]

If Robert Harris thought the Criterion DVD was not representative of the film, I'm sure he would have said so.

As for this "red tint" nonsense: Some of the screenshots show a green, rather than red, tint.

Seems to me Criterion would have made every effort to restore the colours to what they should have been.

If the R2 is accurate, then this movie is the most muted and lifeless looking Technicolor film ever made. Considering P&P's other films and their use of colour, that seems very unlikely to me.

 

[Jean-Michel]

If Robert Harris thought the Criterion DVD was not representative of the film, I'm sure he would have said so.

So are we to assume the Carlton is not representative by default? Again, that seems unfair.

 

[Rain]

So are we to assume the Carlton is not representative by default?

If the Criterion is accurate, then obviously the Carlton is not, right?

 

[Jean-Michel]

If the Criterion is accurate, then obviously the Carlton is not, right?

Not necessarily. One might be "more accurate" than the other. Like I said I'd like Mr. Harris' input into this matter, if possible.
My main issue was not so much the coloration question but your making a sweeping judgment based on still screenshots. Of course one could say that Ted is guilty of the same thing (he didn't say whether or not he's actually seen the Criterion disc so I'm assuming he didn't), but since I tend to agree with Ted on this (that the R2 looks better based on what I know now) I took it up with you instead.

 

[Jeff_HR]

Wow. I currently don't have Straw Dogs, so I'll wait for this edition

Me too! I'll be interested in reading about comparisons between the Criterion version & other versions.

 

[gregstaten]

Slightly (perhaps) off topic regarding the colors created in color correction.

Kodak did a test in the late eighties to determine if there was a "color bias" in different parts of the world. Prior to the test anecdotal evidence pointed to the fact that films were color corrected to a different "neutral color" in different parts of the world.

Kodak sent the same film to telecine colorists at locations around the world and, among other things, discovered that colorists on the U.S. West Coast tended to grade warmer and with a deeper saturation than their counterparts on the U.S. East Coast and that colorists in Europe tended to grade cooler with less saturation.

Recent discussions between telecine colorists, including one just this week on the Telecine-L, have borne this out. There are other factors involved, principally the difference between NTSC/SMPTE-C television phosphors and PAL/EBU phosphors, but this difference in bias seems to be quite apparent.

Of course, this subject is partially tangential to that of which grading is correct, but considering how The Archers used techicolor, I would feel that the more richly saturated result would probably be more accurate. But that's just one colorist's opinion.

-greg

 

[Jon Robertson]

Re: Colonel Blimp

Jack Cardiff, one of the cameramen on the film and subsequent legendary P&P collaborator supervised Criterion's high-definition transfer.

I prefer the rosy look of the Criterion transfer, to be honest. The R2 may have more natural colours but since when was Technicolor - or Powell and Pressburger, for that matter - all about realistic hues? The R2 is lacking a definite richness and saturation present in Criterion's disc.

As for Straw Dogs it's quite clear the R2 is the better disc, but that by no means renders the Criterion worthless. It may well be the situation that both discs (like Sid and Nancy and The Harder They Come) are necessary purchases for die-hard fans, as they appear to have some variations in supplements.

 

[Anthony Thorne]

The R2 STRAW DOGS has received a lot of praise for those various supplements. There's meant to be some really great stuff on there, some amazing anecdotes on the commentary tracks, lots of good material.... I'd heard a rumour about a Criterion STRAW DOGS a couple of weeks ago and had hoped that it might replicate the UK disc's supplements so I wouldn't have to buy two. At this point I'd say the UK disc is definitely worthwhile but the idea of choosing the 'better' disc between the two is way up in the air. Criterion may well have a better transfer, or - it seems possible - it may well feature exactly the same transfer as the Region 2 version (both are recent 16x9 restorations) except presented at 24 fps.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll eventually get both. If the Criterion transfer appears near identical to the UK release and the supplements are luke-warm, however, I'll probably stick with the Region 2 edition. For what it's worth, critic Stephen Prince (Criterion's selection for their commentary and the author of at least one book on Peckinpah) has gone on record in print that he feels the shortened version of Susan George's rape scene plays better than the longer restored version, and that's something I disagree with.

It's funny that Region 2 seems to be bettering Region 1 releases in some instances nowadays. The new Anchor Bay UK TENEBRE (coming out next month) has a proper 16x9 transfer and restores the 20 seconds or so missing from Anchor Bay's Region 1 release. The UK disc of Takeshi Kitano's BROTHER is uncut and has a great doco plus other extras. CROSS OF IRON (from what I've heard) is represented by a longer cut in the Uk edition. The UK DON'T LOOK NOW has a new Blue Underground doco absent from Paramount's R1 release. The forthcoming UK disc of Fritz Lang's M will be taken from an apparently superior restoration to Criterion's early DVD, and Anchor Bay UK's new TIME BANDITS seems to repeat a lot of the extras of the Criterion verion while adding some new ones and upping the transfer to a new 16x9, 5.1 edition - and so on... Obviously R1 has the edge with many, many other DVD's, but R2 seems to be coming into with some transfers and special edition content.

 

[Patrick McCart]

I'll have to agree with Rain about Colonel Blimp...the R2 DVD looks too pale, while the Criterion DVD looks exactly how Technicolor should look.

Keep in mind that Technicolor has different color properties than your standard Eastmancolor.

What probably happened was that Carlton didn't do the extensive frame-by-frame inspection Criterion does.

 

[Jean-Michel]

Witness the recent comparison of the two "Woman In The Dunes" releases, where the clearly inferior R1 release was given the nod (a strong response followed and the review was changed).

Over on the Criterion forums Gary acted as if that was just a mistake. I don't think he (or whoever was responsible for the final judgment) actually changed their opinion under pressure.

I will willingly concede that the Criterion Blimp transfer may well better reflect the original intentions. That said the transfer is still highly problematic IMO because a) the colors are inconsistent (most scenes are fairly saturated, as can been seen by the comparison, but others seem even more subdued than the Carlton) and b) there is, as I noted earlier, a loss of detail in most scenes when compared to the R2, and while I once again emphasize that this is not an educated opinion the loss nevertheless seems too substantial in many cases to be chalked up to the PAL/NTSC resolution difference. In any event I would still recommend the Criterion over the Carlton simply for the extras, transfer aside.

 

[Gordon McMurphy]

The region 2 transfer is quite good, but has a few badly damaged frames in places and I can't see Criterion letting those go by - I'm sure that they'll use digital correction techniques for those frames. Other than those frames, the transfer is great. I'll be buying the Criterion edition for sure, it's a great film and having a (near) pritine version at my fingertips will be most welcome.

But on the other hand, this makes two great editions of Straw Dogs on DVD, but many lacklustre editions of his others films. I hope MGM do a SE of Alfredo Garcia next year.


Gordy

 

[Kevin M]

I'm still in shock that Criterion is releasing their own edition of Straw Dogs....
Bring me the head of Alfredo Garcia & Ride the High Country need a DVD release as well....psst, hey Criterion.

 

[Mark_vdH]

The forthcoming UK disc of Fritz Lang's M will be taken from an apparently superior restoration to Criterion's early DVD

Do you have a source for this news, Anthony?
When will it be out?