Apple Lossless and Spatial Audio (1 Viewer)

[Ronald Epstein]

Ron,

Why would you worry about this (besides the fact Lightning cables are digital)?

As Doug alluded, nobody should be spending $$$ on Airpods-whatevers if they actually cared about lossless audio all that much -- BT doesn't/can't do lossless audio, and obviously, Airpods-whatevers aren't designed to be tethered via the Lightning cable even if a few people might (very) occasionally(?) use them that way.

_Man_

Okay, first of all, the statement I made was not translated correctly.

What I should have said, based on what I read earlier today, is that the Lightning port on AirPods Max are limited to analog output sources and does not support digital audio formats which Apple's new ALAC format is.

I have no issue tethering my Airpods Max via lightning cable -- especially if the capability exists to receive lossless audio.

It's really sad that Apple introduces lossless audio but most of their recent hardware is incapable of decoding it. Of course, Apple is probably working on next-generation products that do, and that's how they get us to upgrade.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Okay, first of all, the statement I made was not translated correctly.

What I should have said, based on what I read earlier today, is that the Lightning port on AirPods Max are limited to analog output sources and does not support digital audio formats which Apple's new ALAC format is.

I have no issue tethering my Airpods Max via lightning cable -- especially if the capability exists to receive lossless audio.

It's really sad that Apple introduces lossless audio but most of their recent hardware is incapable of decoding it. Of course, Apple is probably working on next-generation products that do, and that's how they get us to upgrade.

Ron,

Maybe I'm not enough of an Apple user to know otherwise, but AFAIK, the Lightning port doesn't actually do analog audio.

I just noticed Apple apparently offers a 3.5mm analog stereo to Lightning cable that most likely has a built-in ADC -- maybe it's both DAC and ADC since they claim bi-directionality:

Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable (1.2m) - White

This cable allows you to connect your Beats Solo Pro headphones to 3.5 mm audio ports. It can also connect your iOS or iPadOS device to 3.5 mm audio ports.

www.apple.com

That may be how a small number of Airpods Max (and apparently, Beats Solo Pro) users would send analog audio to them.

Anyway, as I said before, nobody wanting lossless audio all that much should really be buying Airpods-whatever. They are intended for completely different market segment and clearly designed that way (to use BT), which is probably very much Apple's MO...

I suppose if enough Airpods Max owners and potential owners complain enough, they could maybe provide some firmware/software update to allow decoding of ALAC via the Lightning port, but that doesn't seem too likely...

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

HomePod and HomePod mini to Gain Support For Apple Music Lossless Audio in Future Software Update

The HomePod and HomePod mini will gain support for playing back Apple Music Lossless audio in a future software update, according to a newly...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Sam Posten]

Anyone tried a DAC like this?

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Anyone tried a DAC like this?

Too bad something like that can't possibly supply enough juice to drive my Sennheiser HD600s all that well though...

I was tempted to check out one of these a long while back, but pretty sure none of such USB-powered DACs would have enough power to perform well for driving high impedance, audiophile-quality cans:

DragonFly Series

DragonFly Cobalt, Red, and Black. From MP3 to MQA and High-Res: Naturally Beautiful Sound at Your Fingertips, Whenever and Wherever You Want It

www.audioquest.com

_Man_

 

[Sam Posten]

 

[dpippel]

Too bad something like that can't possibly supply enough juice to drive my Sennheiser HD600s all that well though...

I was tempted to check out one of these a long while back, but pretty sure none of such USB-powered DACs would have enough power to perform well for driving high impedance, audiophile-quality cans:

DragonFly Series

DragonFly Cobalt, Red, and Black. From MP3 to MQA and High-Res: Naturally Beautiful Sound at Your Fingertips, Whenever and Wherever You Want It

www.audioquest.com

_Man_

You need one of these, Man...

ADI-2 DAC | High-end USB Audio Converter & Headphone Amp - rme-usa.com

RME Audio Professional Live, Studio, Recording and Broadcast Solutions. Unrivalled Quality, Performance & Stability MADI Interfaces, Converters & Preamps.

www.rme-usa.com

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Woah! Is that what you upgraded to, Doug (@dpippel)?

Are you also still using a Bottlehead Crack OTL amp?

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

Woah! Is that what you upgraded to, Doug (@dpippel)?

Are you also still using a Bottlehead Crack OTL amp?

_Man_

Yes, I just picked this up earlier in the week. It's a wonderful DAC. Sounds fantastic, and has so many options it can be tweaked for practically anything. It also has a built-in 5-band parametric equalizer. The manual weighs almost as much as the unit itself! The built-in headphone amp is extremely good too. I use it with a HiFiMan Sundara and it drives them with as much authority single-ended as my Monolith 887 amp (hugely powerful) does balanced.

Anyway, I've been chasing the DAC thing for a while now, and though this unit isn't cheap ($1299US), the eagle has landed for me. I'm done for a good long while as far as my headphone rig goes. This is just sublime. The Bottlehead Crack? I sold it a few years ago when I moved away from my Sennheiser HD 650. What a great combo that was though!

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Yes, I just picked this up earlier in the week. It's a wonderful DAC. Sounds fantastic, and has so many options it can be tweaked for practically anything. It also has a built-in 5-band parametric equalizer. The manual weighs almost as much as the unit itself! The built-in headphone amp is extremely good too. I use it with a HiFiMan Sundara and it drives them with as much authority single-ended as my Monolith 887 amp (hugely powerful) does balanced.

Anyway, I've been chasing the DAC thing for a while now, and though this unit isn't cheap ($1299US), the eagle has landed for me. I'm done for a good long while as far as my headphone rig goes. This is just sublime. The Bottlehead Crack? I sold it a few years ago when I moved away from my Sennheiser HD 650. What a great combo that was though!

Hmmm... I wasn't aware of the new HiFiMan cans in that price range (apparently currently marked down to $350). I had previously considered the different versions of the HE400 at $200-250 or so to maybe complement the HD600s, but their QC (and durability) seems rather wonky and I figured their bass might be a tad anemic anyway. Sounds like maybe I should consider those new Sundara cans... but I'm definitely not ready to splurge on something like that premium DAC right now -- already spent very substantially on HT/audio gear over the last several months (and probably still need to do some more to finish up) I probably need to recover for a long while...

Also, just noticed this few-year-old, promising-looking, etailer Headphones.com that offers 365-day(!) return policy (and PayPal tells me I currently have a $30-off offer w/ them to boot). Kinda tempting to try out those Sundaras...

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

I just so happened to buy my RME from headphones.com, and I must say that it was a very positive experience. They have very good customer service, free shipping (overnight in my case) on most items, AND they don't charge sales tax, which saved me over $100 on my order. I'd definitely recommend them, AND that you give the Sundara a spin. They're not perfect, but IMO they're very, very good, particularly at their price point.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Hmmm... I wonder how those Sundaras would perform simply driven by Anthem's AVM-60's headphone out or maybe my inexpensive, old Yamaha AVR's headphone out.

I probably need new cans for frequent HT usage (besides music listening), preferably something that the AVM-60's built-in headphone amp can drive well. Yeah, wireless would be nice (for convenience and such), but the sound quality... Will need a rather long (maybe 15ft?) headphone cable for that though...

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

My experience with the Sundara is that it works quite well even with my iPhone, but it scales up nicely too and should work fine with your AVM-60. As for wireless, I've been using a Sony WH-1000MX3 via Bluetooth for late night TV/movie watching for over a year, and have been extremely pleased with it. The ANC is very, very good (and nice for HT use), BT sound quality via my ATV4K is great, and they're VERY comfortable. Plus, the battery lasts forever.

EDIT: Apologies for derailing the thread!

 

[Sam Posten]

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?

A hi-def test for your ears (and your audio equipment): Listen to these songs and see if you can tell the difference between an MP3 and an uncompressed audio file.

www.npr.org

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and lossy audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

 

[Dave Upton]

Like @dpippel I use a RME DAC for my PC and my headphones, but I also use several portable DACs as @Sam Posten mentioned. Right now I am a fan of the EarStudio ES100 and the Qudelix 5K. The only thing Apple still does that really irks me is not supporting lossless bluetooth streaming (LDAC) like Android. I am really looking forward to that changing once this new streaming option forces their hand.

It still boggles my mind that of all companies Apple is using a lossy bluetooth protocol.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

My experience with the Sundara is that it works quite well even with my iPhone, but it scales up nicely too and should work fine with your AVM-60. As for wireless, I've been using a Sony WH-1000MX3 via Bluetooth for late night TV/movie watching for over a year, and have been extremely pleased with it. The ANC is very, very good (and nice for HT use), BT sound quality via my ATV4K is great, and they're VERY comfortable. Plus, the battery lasts forever.

EDIT: Apologies for derailing the thread!

Heh... maybe I should ask this over in the ATV4K thread, but... can/does the ATV4K stream BT audio simultaneously while keeping the audio output over HDMI? I'm thinking maybe having a guest use the Sony WH-1000XM4 or similar while I use the Sundaras driven by my AVM-60 to watch stuff streamed thru the new ATV4K. Also, how many simultaneous BT headphones can the ATV4K handle anyway?

Of course, not gonna be quite the same using headphones, especially w/ guests... but my new situation may need that -- and I may indeed have a guest or two quite often while not being able to blast the HT...

Oh, and yeah, I just ordered the Sundaras from Headphones.com (w/ my $30-off PayPal offer).

Like @dpippel I use a RME DAC for my PC and my headphones, but I also use several portable DACs as @Sam Posten mentioned. Right now I am a fan of the EarStudio ES100 and the Qudelix 5K. The only thing Apple still does that really irks me is not supporting lossless bluetooth streaming (LDAC) like Android. I am really looking forward to that changing once this new streaming option forces their hand.

It still boggles my mind that of all companies Apple is using a lossy bluetooth protocol.

Too bad the AVM-60 doesn't do BT at all -- I hadn't expected to care at all, but now... especially given your mention of LDAC, which I wasn't aware before...

Maybe I should consider getting a modestly priced, decent quality, LDAC-capable HDMI-to-BT (or maybe even SPDIF-to-BT) device that can simultaneously handle 3-4 BT headphones... Any you can recommend?

Thanks, y'all!

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

I'm not sure how many BT connections the ATV4K can handle at once, Man. It will handle two Airpods, but I believe that's limited to Airpods only. As for other manufacturers? Doubtful. FOUR simultaneous connections? Let me know if you find anything.

I hope you enjoy those Sundaras!

 

[Dave Upton]

Heh... maybe I should ask this over in the ATV4K thread, but... can/does the ATV4K stream BT audio simultaneously while keeping the audio output over HDMI? I'm thinking maybe having a guest use the Sony WH-1000XM4 or similar while I use the Sundaras driven by my AVM-60 to watch stuff streamed thru the new ATV4K. Also, how many simultaneous BT headphones can the ATV4K handle anyway?

Of course, not gonna be quite the same using headphones, especially w/ guests... but my new situation may need that -- and I may indeed have a guest or two quite often while not being able to blast the HT...

Oh, and yeah, I just ordered the Sundaras from Headphones.com (w/ my $30-off PayPal offer).



Too bad the AVM-60 doesn't do BT at all -- I hadn't expected to care at all, but now... especially given your mention of LDAC, which I wasn't aware before...

Maybe I should consider getting a modestly priced, decent quality, LDAC-capable HDMI-to-BT (or maybe even SPDIF-to-BT) device that can simultaneously handle 3-4 BT headphones... Any you can recommend?

Thanks, y'all!

_Man_

There isn't anything that natively supports HDMI, but you can easily use a stereo output with this:
See on Amazon

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I'm not sure how many BT connections the ATV4K can handle at once, Man. It will handle two Airpods, but I believe that's limited to Airpods only. As for other manufacturers? Doubtful. FOUR simultaneous connections? Let me know if you find anything.

I hope you enjoy those Sundaras!

Thanks!

Maybe the ATV4K can handle more if I disconnect the Siri remote in those rare(?) times I might want/need more -- not sure how much I'd normally use the Siri remote anyway instead of just my Harmony remote.

I'm currently eye-ing an open box Sony WH-1000XM4 for ~$240 (tax-free?) shipped. Wonder if it might do better than the Sundaras for movies streamed thru the ATV4K given the specifics of all that. Would also be nice to have for the (very) occasional air travel on top of this use -- indeed, even have a cross-country trip coming up in late July...

There isn't anything that natively supports HDMI, but you can easily use a stereo output with this:
See on Amazon

Looks like that specific model doesn't actually handle analog input -- I assume that's what you meant. Guess I'll probably just hold off getting anything like that for now. Maybe something will eventually come out w/ HDMI input... or maybe my situation will change again in a couple years -- things may well be in major flux for foreseeable future -- so it becomes unnecessary...

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I'm currently eye-ing an open box Sony WH-1000XM4 for ~$240 (tax-free?) shipped. Wonder if it might do better than the Sundaras for movies streamed thru the ATV4K given the specifics of all that. Would also be nice to have for the (very) occasional air travel on top of this use -- indeed, even have a cross-country trip coming up in late July...

Hmmm... just came across the Audeze Mobius that could be intriguing, but at its price (and probably similar enough planar-mag sound while missing ANC, which I'd actually rarely want/need), not sure I can justify having it on top the Sundaras... Between that and the (cheaper) new HiFiMan Devas, I'd need to reconsider going w/ the Sony, which mainly has its superb battery life and ANC going for it...

_Man_