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For Those Who Still Think Physical Media Has No Place in the 21st century...

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Nick*Z, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    At the risk of coming off as a curmudgeon, what you’re describing is actually a version of piracy.

    The law provides for you to make personal backup copies of media you own. You’re absolutely entitled to make a copy of something you have on vinyl and put it on a CD, or to copy a laserdisc onto a DVD.

    But you must either retain the original item, or destroy it. You cannot transfer the original item to another owner while retaining the backup copy. Once you’ve transferred ownership of the original item to someone else, you’re no longer entitled to have a backup copy of that thing which you no longer own.
     
  2. Message #502 of 647 Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    Thomas T

    Thomas T Producer

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    Thank you, Josh! Piracy or/and bootlegging (which is what Oldtimer is doing by any name) is one of the reasons the studios and other companies that own product would be more than happy for physical media to vanish. As a SAG member, I receive lots of screeners during awards season. I never lend them to friends because of the possibility they might attempt to copy the screener. What Oldtimer is doing only confirms my resolution.
     
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  3. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    I’m generally stumped at this belief that a majority of customers can be forced into abandoning something that they already like and that works just fine for them, in favor of something that they don’t like and rejected years ago. Eliminating DVD is more likely to push a majority of the remaining holdovers into a streaming format, not into another physical media format.

    I genuinely do not understand why this is a difficult idea to convey. Why is it not possible to both love discs while also understanding that a majority of the buying public does not share that love?
     
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  4. jcroy

    jcroy Producer

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    Especially if screener dvds have a "traitor tracing" scheme encoded.

    (The bluray AACS system has a built-in "traitor tracing" scheme).

    I generally assume that anything which pumps out unique ids to copies, will have a way of tracing who the traitor is when it comes to leaks.
     
  5. JC Riesenbeck

    JC Riesenbeck Auditioning

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    Thinking that doing away with physical media will make a dent into bootlegging or pirating is kind of naive. In fact, just the opposite. Once the studios started putting digital copies out before the disc release the only thing they accomplished with bootleggers is to make them available that much quicker and in 1080P quality. So if that's the plan, newsflash: it isn't working.

    And as far as discs go, I don't know how many people it pertains to but my internet is total garbage. I pay $195 a month for wireless internet that is often barely passable and the only thing going for it is that its better than satellite internet. The FCC keeps throwing money hands over fists to the ISP's to expand to rural areas and all they do is expand into new subdivisions that they would anyway and then charge the taxpayers for it. Case in point: Mine. I live half a block from a huge new complex of homes that have Spectrum internet. Yet, they won't expand into the next block and will give no explanation as to why or why not. All I'm saying is that there are still millions out there who can not get decent high speed internet, and the way things are going we won't be able to for a long long time. Without my bluray collection on disc, I'd have nothing.
     
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  6. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    I believe the only way to make a dent in piracy is to do what’s happening now - make the streaming options easier and simpler to figure out than the piracy options, and price it so that the average customer feels that paying the fee is a better use of their time than staying on top of the piracy world.

    It’ll never be completely eliminated. People record movies from projection booths. Check discs are stolen from manufacturing plants to leak perfect copies of discs weeks before they’re in stores. Most streaming services are cracked moments after the new content is added.

    Like I’ve said, the most popular legal streaming services are well aware of all of this. And that’s why they’re fine with password swapping and multiple users sharing one legal account. At least that way, they’re getting some form of payment instead of none, and they’re keeping you in their ecosystem.

    But make no mistake: piracy is a huge existential threat. We live in an era where anyone with a computer can illegally download pretty much any disc that’s ever been made or any show that’s ever been on TV or streaming, and can do it easier and faster than calling up your local pizza place to order delivery. If enough people decide to pirate, the entire system could collapse.

    At this point, whether streaming works well for the individual is anecdotal. Ten years ago, physical media was taking in $20 billion a year. Last year, physical media took in just $3 billion, while streaming subscriptions and purchases took in about $20 billion. For streaming to gross $20 billion dollars, it has to work for a lot of people. Far more people than are buying and using discs.

    That’s not a statement in judgment of anyone’s personal preference or choice. That’s just a statement of the reality of how people are getting their entertainment today.
     
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  7. TJPC

    TJPC Producer

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    You obviously missed it, but collecting Beanie Babies was by no means a niche pursuit. When the new ones were scheduled to be sold, there were lines around the block.
     
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  8. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Blu-ray discs sales will only increase slightly because you're ignoring one reason why disc sales have decreased. Storage space, people either don't want to have many discs in their home and/or they don't have the storage space for them.
     
  9. Message #509 of 647 Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    OLDTIMER

    OLDTIMER Stunt Coordinator

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    In defense of the accusation leveled against me, all I can say is that at the time I copied the laser Discs, that medium was defunct and no new Laser discs were being produced.
    Similarly, the LPs and 78s were copied when no new LPs or 78s were being produced and turntables were almost impossible to buy. I wonder whom I was hurting?
    I certainly don't copy DVDs or Blu-rays!
     
  10. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    Same reason why they were forced into abandoning VHS when that worked just fine for them. At least Blu-ray players will still play DVDs. With stores having less space for media, it just makes no sense to waste part of it on the obsolete format. At least just sell the Blu-ray/DVD sets for those who refuse to switch.
     
  11. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    Please understand that I’m not saying that you’re a bad person or had bad intentions. I’m just explaining the letter of the law. You’re absolutely allowed to copy your own stuff for backup purposes. The problem is, once you sold the original laserdisc, the backup copy you retained was no longer a backup of something you owned, which legally meant that you were no longer entitled to it under fair use or the first sale doctrine. If you had just thrown the old laserdiscs in the trash, no problem.

    The law doesn’t make a distinction between whether the content is on a current format or an obsolete one. It only makes a distinction for whether the material is still under copyright.

    The victim (and I use that word lightly here) is the copyright holder. The studio sold only one copy of the laserdisc, but by transferring ownership of the original laserdisc while retaining a copy, now two people are utilizing that same copy. The FBI isn’t gonna show up at your doorstep to take you away but what you’ve described is technically not legal.
     
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  12. Message #512 of 647 Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    jcroy

    jcroy Producer

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    For that matter, they can go all the way and just remove ALL media entirely!!! (ie. No dvd, no bluray, no 4Kbluray, no cd, no playstation, no xbox, no nintendo, etc ... discs).

    Of all the local places I use to go shopping for dvd/bluray discs, just about ALL of them have removed all media entirely except for wallyworld.

    My local BestBuy's media section is almost nonexistent. You would be hard pressed to even see it, if you didn't know where to look. (It is hidden away in a corner that nobody goes to).
     
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  13. jcroy

    jcroy Producer

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    The fact that this is very difficult to legally enforce, is why it happens and people simply look the other way.

    This considerably accelerated when p2p file sharing became the norm 15+ years ago.


    (Without getting heavily into politics).

    Imho, this type of system simply doesn't work on the honor system.
     
  14. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    We clearly have very different memories of that period in time. As someone who both worked in a video store when DVD came out and then worked for a home video label when VHS disappeared, I do not recall anyone being forced to abandon VHS. I recall lots of people choosing to switch because the new format offered them benefits that the old one did not. Which, come to think about it, explains pretty much any evolution in technology.

    Stores don’t just “have less space for media” as an arbitrary happening. No store is going to cease carrying legal products that yield them business. Stores have less space for media because customers stopped buying media in stores.

    We didn’t stop stocking VHS at the video store I worked, or stop making VHS tapes at the company I worked because we were trying to force a change on people. We stopped doing those things because customers stopped buying them. Most of the store’s VHS tapes went into the dumpster because after a year of being on display for 99 cents each, almost none had sold. We stopped making VHS at the home video label I was at because orders stopped coming in for them.

    I’m starting to get frustrated being spoken down to with unsubstantiated opinions in rebuttal to actual verifiable facts. I think it’s probably past time for me to leave this thread.
     
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  15. jcroy

    jcroy Producer

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    (Without getting heavily into politics).

    Most people do not want to hear the actual truth about anything. In practice, most people just want to hear what confirms what they already believe and/or what they WANT to believe. It doesn't matter whether it is factual or outright fantasy/fiction.
     
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  16. Thomas T

    Thomas T Producer

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    Yes. Several years ago, an actor was kicked out of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences when a bootleg DVD was traced back to a screener sent to him. I could lose my SAG membership if I loaned a screener to a "friend" who then copied it without my knowledge.
     
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  17. Josh Steinberg

    Josh Steinberg Executive Producer
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    Which is why you’re just inviting us over for a screening instead, right? :D
     
  18. Thomas T

    Thomas T Producer

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    :lol: Inviting friends over doesn't constitute a "public screening" so I'm safe there. In 2016, I was on the SAG nominating committee (which votes on which films will be nominated for SAG awards) and I must have had something like 70 screeners sent to me (some in elaborate mailing boxes) and I probably got through half of them. I was being sent copies of obscure movies (like this wrestling movie with Jon Voight) that wouldn't be nominated in a million years but I also got a few obscure gems like a movie called Tallulah with Allison Janney and Ellen Page.

    But I'm old fashioned enough to still prefer watching movies in theaters which is why I attended SAG screenings set up by the studios every chance I got. When I attended a screening of Fences, free popcorn and coke (the soft drink kind) was provided and after a screening of Hidden Figures, we were given champagne. Nothing like a little bribery.
     
  19. jcroy

    jcroy Producer

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    Some people truely believe that there is an evil "wizard behind the curtain" running the home video business, causing everything according to plan.

    ;)

    Let's make an X-Files episode which outlines what the evil "wizard behind the curtain" at Sony/Paramount/Universal/Warner/Disney/LG/Pioneer/Panasonic are planning. :)
     
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  20. Blu Eye

    Blu Eye Stunt Coordinator

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    I wonder if Blu Ray film sellers could perhaps increase their sales by perhaps repackaging some films or having two types of packaging for one film. Don't know if this would increase their costs significantly when manufacturing/designing their releases, however.

    For example, maybe they could have labeling on their films with PS5 so gamers looking for games on their PS5 will also see movies on the same shelving in the stores. Might at least work for new film releases. Perhaps not for old or classic type movies.

    Perhaps they could even possibly do dual package products with both the game and the film together. Maybe enforce them to pay a little bit more ($5-$10 over the sole game release) by releasing the game with the movie only and no option for the game alone.

    I am not a gamer and so don't know the trends with that market and whether most games are played online only now or if physical games are still selling well.
     

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