For Those Who Still Think Physical Media Has No Place in the 21st century… (1 Viewer)

[Tino]

Directly onto the multi terabyte hard drive of their several thousand dollar players.

So it wasn't a portable device? Where’s the fun in that?

 

[Wayne_j]

So it wasn't a portable device? Where’s the fun in that?

It is pretty much a UHD Blu-Ray player that doesn't play discs but does play UHD downloads at roughly the same bit rates as the discs.

 

[Traveling Matt]

So I wonder just how long a disc that was pressed on a stable blank and was taken care of might last. The problem rests with sub-standard blanks it seems. I've seen "100 year guaranteed" DVD and BD blanks for sale. Of course, how can the manufacturers guarantee 100 years?

It sounds like it will last as long as there are machines that can play it.

"Titles getting lost forever, that's going to happen with physical media anyway. We've got the [National Film and Sound Archive's] 'Deadline 2025' around the decay of physical media and the machines that can play those tapes; those things are deteriorating. The idea that something can last forever is a problem no matter where we look."

Which brings me to this. I didn't read their report but I looked at the site and watched their video. I understand why tape degradation is a problem, but I don't understand why they cannot fund the manufacture of new machines and train people to operate them (the other 2 of their 3 issues). Tape degradation should be their only concern, and plenty would surely survive into 2025.

 

[Edwin-S]

So, if sites like Disney+ have a download feature, how hard is it for someone to download a show and put it on a blu-ray (for their own personal use only, of course; I in no way advocate bootlegging)? I prefer physical media as a storage device. All of my music - even downloads I have purchased and backed up - are on CD.

There is no way that Disney is going to allow downloaded content from Disney+ to be burned to a disc. It is going to be cloud-resident only and require a subscription to access. It will probably follow a model similar to PS+ on the Playstation. No subscription, no access. It will basically be a cloud-based version of DIVX with the exception that your subscription will allow unlimited access at any time.

 

[DaveF]

So, if sites like Disney+ have a download feature, how hard is it for someone to download a show and put it on a blu-ray (for their own personal use only, of course; I in no way advocate bootlegging)? I prefer physical media as a storage device. All of my music - even downloads I have purchased and backed up - are on CD.

No such thing as a 4K download from any of the streaming digital services.

1080P only.

It's already beat. People are recording what I think are high-bit rate streaming buffers and posting them to pirate sites. I was reading a discussion about whether The Mandalorian is in Atmos and it was noted that it's already posted in high bit rate 4K HDR Atmos extracted from the streaming service.

So...not easy for normal people. But for folks that want to go to the effort, it's happening. (I've not looked into it and I don't know what sites these things are on. But it's tempting to search, since as a paid subscriber to D+, I want Atmos and currently this is the only way I could get it. The old argument of dealing with scum and villainy to work around corporate limitations of not supporting the devices that I own.)

 

[DaveF]

As for physical media: it's still both / and for me. I buy discs for best quality and special features and so on (and put them on my HTPC because the digital experience is better than dealing with physical media). But I've got lots of cable stations and streaming content I enjoy as well.

If anything kills media and HTPC for me, I think it's likely D+. I'm paying about $50 a year for D+, that's the cost of two blu-rays. Why will I buy another Disney / Marvel / Pixar / Star Wars movie again?

 

[Edwin-S]

As for physical media: it's still both / and for me. I buy discs for best quality and special features and so on (and put them on my HTPC because the digital experience is better than dealing with physical media). But I've got lots of cable stations and streaming content I enjoy as well.

If anything kills media and HTPC for me, I think it's likely D+. I'm paying about $50 a year for D+, that's the cost of two blu-rays. Why will I buy another Disney / Marvel / Pixar / Star Wars movie again?

Yes. I think that will be the biggest effect of Disney+. It is going to cannibalize disc sales for their films. If all their major releases end up on Disney+ and are permanently resident there then purchasing a disc becomes pointless. There would only be one reason for purchasing any of Disney's films on disc from that point on; that is if the film gets a 3D release in another market and people who still have 3D TV sets want to import a copy.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

This isn’t meant as a knock on the concept of physical media, but it’s a fallacy to believe that physical media is a guarantee of lifetime access.

Whether it’s due to an evolution of formats (a pan and scan VHS copy would not be considered an acceptable viewing option for many, and analog sunset has resulted in a new generation of TVs that don’t have inputs for VCRs anyway), or due to physical degradation (I’m in the process of ripping my disc collection to a home theater PC and some discs have simply gone bad through no fault of my own), buying a copy of a movie stored on a physical item is no guarantee that that physical item will always be accessible for playback.

I also believe it is ludicrous to compare physical ownership of a disc with subscription streaming services. Just as there is no relation between owning an exercise bike or being a gym member, or buying a DVD vs renting one at a video store, purchasing a disc or subscribing to Netflix/Disney+ are not the same thing, have never tried to be the same thing, and aren’t a valid comparison.

I don’t think anyone has attempted to make a real argument on this forum that physical has no use in the 21st century. Rather, the point has been made that the average consumer has moved away from physical media as their preferred delivery method of content. But if you’re a member of this site, you’re not an average consumer to begin with. That physical media is important to us has very little relation to how most people feel. Most people buy a new TV, see that it has apps built in, press a button on their remote and can watch something, and that’s all they want or need. And if enthusiasts can’t recognize that, they will not be able to understand why the world is changing around them.

 

[WillG]

I never understood the people who have an actual, seeming hostility to physical media. Even friends of mine have busted my balls over my DVD/BD collection. I’ve heard stuff like “it doesn’t appreciate in value” (which isn’t even always entirely true, some OOP titles have fetched high prices on eBay, no?). Neither do cars, but we still buy them.

Same with 3D, people seemed to hate its very existence even though no one was forcing it on them. And unfortunately they kind of won.

 

[WillG]

Yes. I think that will be the biggest effect of Disney+. It is going to cannibalize disc sales for their films. If all their major releases end up on Disney+ and are permanently resident there then purchasing a disc becomes pointless. There would only be one reason for purchasing any of Disney's films on disc from that point on; that is if the film gets a 3D release in another market and people who still have 3D TV sets want to import a copy.

speaking of which, if Disney will not longer release 3D discs in North America, would it kill them to offer a 3D option on Disney+. How hard could that be?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

speaking of which, if Disney will not longer release 3D discs in North America, would it kill them to offer a 3D option on Disney+. How hard could that be?

No ones ever really solved the streaming 3D issue; it’s been offered before but there have been serious quality issues due to the compression and reformatting.

But beyond that - and I say this as a huge 3D fan - there’s very little market for it. No consumer electronics manufacturer has made a 3D television for over three years now, most streaming boxes can’t support it, and most consumers who dipped their toe in that water have given up on it.

I wish there was a less grim answer but I don’t think that capability passes a cost/benefit analysis at Disney.

 

[WillG]

This isn’t meant as a knock on the concept of physical media, but it’s a fallacy to believe that physical media is a guarantee of lifetime access.

Whether it’s due to an evolution of formats (a pan and scan VHS copy would not be considered an acceptable viewing option for many, and analog sunset has resulted in a new generation of TVs that don’t have inputs for VCRs anyway), or due to physical degradation (I’m in the process of ripping my disc collection to a home theater PC and some discs have simply gone bad through no fault of my own), buying a copy of a movie stored on a physical item is no guarantee that that physical item will always be accessible for playback.

I also believe it is ludicrous to compare physical ownership of a disc with subscription streaming services. Just as there is no relation between owning an exercise bike or being a gym member, or buying a DVD vs renting one at a video store, purchasing a disc or subscribing to Netflix/Disney+ are not the same thing, have never tried to be the same thing, and aren’t a valid comparison.

I don’t think anyone has attempted to make a real argument on this forum that physical has no use in the 21st century. Rather, the point has been made that the average consumer has moved away from physical media as their preferred delivery method of content. But if you’re a member of this site, you’re not an average consumer to begin with. That physical media is important to us has very little relation to how most people feel. Most people buy a new TV, see that it has apps built in, press a button on their remote and can watch something, and that’s all they want or need. And if enthusiasts can’t recognize that, they will not be able to understand why the world is changing around them.

Of course everything decays over time and streaming can often be very convenient. But for me, streaming is still not a 100% flawless experience. For example I did a big streaming binge on Game of Thrones via HBO GO leading to the final season. It was unwatchable on my 65” LG OLED even on a LAN connection (it was passable on my older 55” Samsung 1080 set but still looked shitty if you looked close enough). The Mandolorian looked pretty good on the OLED for the most part, but there was still some blockiness in the darker interior scenes. Streaming has also been frustrating in terms of content. I have Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime, and I have rarely been able to find a movie I wanted to watch at a given time on all three of those services. Maybe people like us are the minority, but there’s no reason we should have to justify a preference for physical media.

 

[WillG]

No ones ever really solved the streaming 3D issue; it’s been offered before but there have been serious quality issues due to the compression and reformatting.

But beyond that - and I say this as a huge 3D fan - there’s very little market for it. No consumer electronics manufacturer has made a 3D television for over three years now, most streaming boxes can’t support it, and most consumers who dipped their toe in that water have given up on it.

I wish there was a less grim answer but I don’t think that capability passes a cost/benefit analysis at Disney.

I get that the market isn’t really there, but Disney is still releasing their movies in 3D theatrically in NA (I have a ticket for an IMAX 3D showing of TRoS) so, it’s not yet an entirely dead format. Disc releases are one thing, but I can’t imagine it would be that costly to dump the option on their streaming service (barring technical issues). Last time I checked my cable provider still offers on demand 3D titles, not a huge selection, but it is there.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

there’s no reason we should have to justify a preference for physical media.

I don’t think we do.

I think everyone has friends/family/colleagues who don’t understand their hobbies and therefore express that lack of understanding in ways that can come off as (or simply are) condescending. But that’s more of a people problem than a disc person.

But I don’t think anyone on this forum is asking anyone else to justify liking a disc. I think it’s more a matter of that, in general, there are a small number of disc enthusiasts out of the total number of posters who simply do not understand or believe that average consumers like streaming, and seem to view it as some kind of a trick, when I think it’s just a simple case of the average consumers liking their new options more than their old ones.

 

[Edwin-S]

I never understood the people who have an actual, seeming hostility to physical media. Even friends of mine have busted my balls over my DVD/BD collection. I’ve heard stuff like “it doesn’t appreciate in value” (which isn’t even always entirely true, some OOP titles have fetched high prices on eBay, no?). Neither do cars, but we still buy them.

Same with 3D, people seemed to hate its very existence even though no one was forcing it on them. And unfortunately they kind of won.

The problem was that the people whining about 3D did think it was being forced on them because they supposedly had to pay extra for a feature they would never use. I wonder how many of those people will whine and complain about paying more for NVidia G-Sync technology in their LG OLED sets; a technology that about 90% of average TV purchasers will never use.

3D was pretty well the first TV feature for which support was completely eliminated even though by the time of its elimination the actual cost increase of including it was probably near to zero. I say that because TV prices did not decrease in any measurable amount by its elimination. The drop in 4K TV prices is all due to the normal market forces of market penetration, competition from new entrants and market saturation.

speaking of which, if Disney will not longer release 3D discs in North America, would it kill them to offer a 3D option on Disney+. How hard could that be?

I don't think there would be any technical limitation. It just won't happen, IMO, because the Suits at Disney decided to cut their losses with 3D content. They had zero issue with cutting customers, who had purchased all of the physical equipment for 3D, off at the knees. They certainly are going to have little concern for those same customers with their streaming service. Manufacturers dropping 3D support off of their sets does not help the case for Disney to support 3D releases on Disney+ because, going forward, the audience with the capability to watch 3D content will continually shrink as 3D capable TVs die and are replaced by 2D only sets. There is just no incentive for Disney to put 3D copies of their films on Disney+.

 

[Edwin-S]

I never understood the people who have an actual, seeming hostility to physical media.

Oops. Hit the post button too soon. There is always going to be a percentage of people that will look on someone else's hobby as childish or a waste of money, while failing to see that the same argument could be applied to anything that they like to do. As long as you enjoy what you are doing then who really gives a shit what someone else thinks of it or whether it is a "waste" of money. It's not like a miser is going to be taking their money with them. All it means, is they may have a fancier looking tombstone, unless their heirs have taken their message to heart and figure that they money spent on the tombstone could be better employed somewhere else.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I get that the market isn’t really there, but Disney is still releasing their movies in 3D theatrically in NA (I have a ticket for an IMAX 3D showing of TRoS) so, it’s not yet an entirely dead format. Disc releases are one thing, but I can’t imagine it would be that costly to dump the option on their streaming service (barring technical issues). Last time I checked my cable provider still offers on demand 3D titles, not a huge selection, but it is there.

I just don’t think there’s enough demand for it to register on Disney’s radar as a thing they must do. Usually 3D streaming or on demand requires either halving or quartering the resolution to fit two eye views into a single frame, and then that frame gets highly compressed, and the end result is less than desirable. And the people most likely to take advantage of the offerings would be people who already ordered a disc from somewhere.

I’d really love it if there were a solution here that Disney embraced, but given that they had no interest in a domestic 3D disc release of Frozen back in 2014 when 3D TVs were still made and 3D discs represented ten percent of any given title’s sales, it’s just hard to imagine them showing the interest.

 

[WillG]

The problem was that the people whining about 3D did think it was being forced on them because they supposedly had to pay extra for a feature they would never use. I wonder how many of those people will whine and complain about paying more for NVidia G-Sync technology in their LG OLED sets; a technology that about 90% of average TV purchasers will never use.

3D was pretty well the first TV feature for which support was completely eliminated even though by the time of its elimination the actual cost increase of including it was probably near to zero. I say that because TV prices did not decrease in any measurable amount by its elimination. The drop in 4K TV prices is all due to the normal market forces of market penetration, competition from new entrants and market saturation.

which actually kind of proves my point. There was no cost reason that manufacturers had to kill 3D capability (ok maybe active shutter glasses cost a few extra bucks, but I don’t recall that any major manufacturer that sold 3D capable only sets). And yeah most TVs still have features that 99% of people aren’t going to use. Even Smart enabled TVs are kind of pointless as any device you would connect to a television these days is also Smart enabled. 3D really bugged a lot of people for some odd reason.

 

[WillG]

I just don’t think there’s enough demand for it to register on Disney’s radar as a thing they must do. Usually 3D streaming or on demand requires either halving or quartering the resolution to fit two eye views into a single frame, and then that frame gets highly compressed, and the end result is less than desirable. And the people most likely to take advantage of the offerings would be people who already ordered a disc from somewhere.

I’d really love it if there were a solution here that Disney embraced, but given that they had no interest in a domestic 3D disc release of Frozen back in 2014 when 3D TVs were still made and 3D discs represented ten percent of any given title’s sales, it’s just hard to imagine them showing the interest.

not disagreeing with anyone, but would be nice

 

[jcroy]

I think everyone has friends/family/colleagues who don’t understand their hobbies and therefore express that lack of understanding in ways that can come off as (or simply are) condescending. But that’s more of a people problem than a disc person.

(Without going into details in an offtopic tangent).

For several of my "hobbies/interests", the mere mentioning of it is an immediate conversation stopper with many of my local offline acquaintances/friends.