For the love of movies: The Past, Present, and Future of Cinema and what makes us fans (1 Viewer)

[tsodcollector]

wes craven is a cult filmmaker,and so is new world pictures is a cult movie studio.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I generally consider cult movies to be truly independent movies. Not something from Miramax or Focus Pictures but a movie that someone made on their own and that gained an audience by word of mouth. Movies like Faster, Pussycat, Kill! Kill! or Pink Flamingos or Eraserhead or The Evil Dead. Some studio pictures are obvious exceptions like Beyond The Valley Of The Dolls or The Rocky Horror Picture Show where a movie was made by a studio but it took off over time rather than opening weekend. It's pushing it in my mind but I guess I could see something like Blade Runner or Fight Club as cult movies too since they tanked when they opened but the fans remembered them.




I wouldn't really consider Anderson(s) to be cult movie makers. They just make small movies for studios.

Have you ever read or flipped through the Danny Peary Cult Movies books? I think there are three volumes and about 50 films in each book. I have them and have been going back through them this summer. When I first read them I was thinking, I don't think some of these pictures are cult films. I will pull out volume 1 and see what I can quote from it.

 

[TravisR]

Have you ever read or flipped through the Danny Peary Cult Movies books? I think there are three volumes and about 50 films in each book. I have them and have been going back through them this summer. When I first read them I was thinking, I don't think some of these pictures are cult films. I will pull out volume 1 and see what I can quote from it.

I've heard of it but never read it. I'm sure anyone's cult movies list would have movies that some other fans would say aren't really cult movies.

 

[tsodcollector]

new line cinema,is a cult movie studio,that left a legacy behind,well never seen the light of day again.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I've heard of it but never read it. I'm sure anyone's cult movies list would have movies that some other fans would say aren't really cult movies.

Here's a quote from Peary from an interview with him:

Unlike what other critics had always been saying, I said cult movies are not obscure movies anymore that only the “real” cinephile person has seen in some dungy basement, but all kinds of films, which is why I put “The Classics, the Sleepers, the Weird, and the Wonderful” [in the book’s subtitle]. I have long definitions in each of my three Cult Movies books, and they’re a little bit different, in responding to all the criticism I got for how I defined cult movies. I never got criticism for the chapters themselves or what I wrote, but people, particularly critics—I became a target of what cult movies are. So my definition of cult movies became the definition, which was expanded. I made it much broader than it used to be. And not everybody liked it.

Link to the full article:

‘Cult Movies’ at 40: Danny Peary on Constructing the Cult Canon and Cult Movies in the Internet Age

His three books from the 1980s helped define what we consider a cult movie. Now, Peary talks about what’s changed with the greater access to movies and the ability to share information more easily.

www.theringer.com

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Here are some pictures Peary has in his first volume on Cult Movies that I questioned if they would be "cult" films:

Casablanca - This seems like a picture that is so well known, loved by so many, and that everyone that wants to know anything about film has had to have seen. I actually had seen it so many times over the years I got sick of it and now have not watched it in a good 10 years or so.

Citizen Kane - Again, isn't this picture tremendously well known? I have noticed it can be a love or hate kind of picture but I think that is in part because it was hyped so many times as the greatest movie ever made. Can it be a cult film if people keep listing it as one of the greatest films ever made and it is on pretty much every greatest films list?

Halloween - OK, Peary's book was released in 1985 and maybe this was not yet the most released film on home video at that point but Halloween is now a giant franchise and everybody, I think, knows this picture. No way this can be a cult film now, right?

It's a Wonderful Life - So, I believe this was a flop when it came out, or am I wrong about that. However, now it has been a holiday staple for so long it can't still be a cult film can it?

King Kong - The original of course. This is another classic film that I just think anybody interested in film has had to have seen. It's been popular for so long I doubt you could call it cult.

The Maltese Falcon - Again, classic shown over and over on TV through the years. Don't know how the film did when it opened but at this point it has to be considered widely seen and popular.

Rebel Without a Cause - James Dean, hugely popular picture for decades that probably has fans all over the world just based on Dean's image.

Singin' in the Rain - Again, this has to be the most popular and well known musical ever made. That can't be cult, can it?

2001 - So, this does go to my Kubrick question, are his pictures mainstream or cult? Released now, I think they would all be cult films.

The Wizard of Oz - No way this can be cult. Good god, everyone has seen this haven't they?

 

[TravisR]

Here's a quote from Peary from an interview with him:

Unlike what other critics had always been saying, I said cult movies are not obscure movies anymore that only the “real” cinephile person has seen in some dungy basement, but all kinds of films, which is why I put “The Classics, the Sleepers, the Weird, and the Wonderful” [in the book’s subtitle]. I have long definitions in each of my three Cult Movies books, and they’re a little bit different, in responding to all the criticism I got for how I defined cult movies. I never got criticism for the chapters themselves or what I wrote, but people, particularly critics—I became a target of what cult movies are. So my definition of cult movies became the definition, which was expanded. I made it much broader than it used to be. And not everybody liked it.

Link to the full article:

‘Cult Movies’ at 40: Danny Peary on Constructing the Cult Canon and Cult Movies in the Internet Age

His three books from the 1980s helped define what we consider a cult movie. Now, Peary talks about what’s changed with the greater access to movies and the ability to share information more easily.

www.theringer.com

If you're writing a multi-volume book, you need to have lots of titles to talk about but no one will ever convince me that Citizen Kane or The Wizard Of Oz are cult movies.

Halloween - OK, Peary's book was released in 1985 and maybe this was not yet the most released film on home video at that point but Halloween is now a giant franchise and everybody, I think, knows this picture. No way this can be a cult film now, right?

Yeah, given when the book was written, Halloween is a little easier sell as a cult movie but I'd argue that once it became the most successful independent picture of its day (which was presumably by 1980), it wasn't a cult movie anymore. Again, I get it, the guy is trying to write a book that's going to have appeal to more than just a guy like me so I can see why he had a very broad definition for cult movies.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I would not consider any of those titles to be cult films. With the exception of Halloween (which itself was well made with good production values and received widespread distribution on release and did incredible box office), and It’s A Wonderful Life (which underperformed initially but is now one of the most widely known films ever made), all of those titles were financed and produced by major studios, received widespread acclaim upon release, and were financially successful. I don’t see any lens by which those films could be viewed as cult titles.

I wouldn’t consider Stanley Kubrick a cult filmmaker anymore than I’d consider Christopher Nolan one today. Kubrick had no desire to make low budget, independent films for the duration of his career; his first two films (Fear & Desire and Killer’s Kiss) were made specifically to hone his craft and have something to show the studios so that they would hire him. Every film he made after that was made using studio resources with the intention of being seen by as big an audience as possible. Even when a film of his didn’t turn out to be a big hit, like Barry Lyndon, he wasn’t struggling to make it through unfavorable circumstances or having difficulty getting it shown; it just wasn’t a big hit.

You could argue that there’s a little bit of a cult of personality around Kubrick as a figure, but that’s not the same thing as him being a cult filmmaker or his films being cult films. He wanted his films to be seen as widely as possible and the studios that financed and distributed his work gave him nearly unlimited resources to ensure that was a possibility.

 

[TravisR]

I wouldn’t consider Stanley Kubrick a cult filmmaker anymore than I’d consider Christopher Nolan one today.

The only Kubrick picture that I could see an argument for as being a cult movie is A Clockwork Orange since punk rock kids from the 1970's to the 90's embraced its nihilism. For the record, that's not an argument that I would agree with.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The only Kubrick picture that I could see an argument for as being a cult movie is A Clockwork Orange since punk rock kids from the 1970's to the 90's embraced its nihilism. For the record, that's not an argument that I would agree with.

I could see that too but I also am in agreement with you.

Having enduring popularity doesn’t make something a cult film; it makes it something that has enduring popularity.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

If you're writing a multi-volume book, you need to have lots of titles to talk about but no one will ever convince me that Citizen Kane or The Wizard Of Oz are cult movies.

A big part of "cult" to me is that whatever it is, it stands outside of the mainstream. So, on those films I mentioned that he has in his book, well, those pictures are all so huge all other pictures made after them are basically judged against them. So, while I do not think much of today's movie audience would like 2001, the film is a defining picture and mile marker in the genre. That goes for all the other films I listed as well. So, yes, I agree with you guys that I don't think they should be on a cult films list.

Maybe he listed them to pull in a wider group of people to read his book. I don't think he knew he would do two more volumes after he did the first volume but I think he could have left that list of pictures out of his book with so many pictures he could talk about.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Here are some films he mentioned that I really do think of as cult films:

Behind the Green Door - Yes, he has a porn film in the book but it is a porn film that caused porn films to become more than something that guys in raincoats and hats went to see alone. It may have been the most seen porn film in the year the book came out but my guess is, due to the limited number of places to see it, it had probably not been widely seen in 1985. It's an intentionally arty porn film, which in itself is pretty odd.

Beyond the Valley of the Dolls - There is only one word for this...cult.

El Topo - Kind of a defining cult film that influenced other cult type filmmakers.

Eraserhead - Cult from start to finish.

Force of Evil - A great noir that in 1985 was probably mostly an unknown film to most and was just itching to be rediscovered.

Freaks - Probably influenced a lot of cult films that came after it.

Greetings - A little seen De Palma film.

Johnny Guitar - A truly bizarre entry in the Western genre and the Ray film that should be in the book over Rebel.

Kiss Me Deadly - Great, weird, noir that at the time the book came out in 1985 was not yet part of the Criterion Collection.

The Long Goodbye - Probably one of Altman's best pictures but when the book came out not one of his better known or loved films.

Peeping Tom - This picture actually was banned I believe and kind of destroyed Michael Powell. Until Scorsese championed it not sure anybody really talked about it. It is a great intense picture that is very much cult.

Pink Flamingos - Cult when it came out, still cult now. How can this picture be anything but?

Rock 'n' Roll High School - Yes, this is cult and is the high school version of Rocky Horror kind of.

Two Lane Blacktop - Unusual car fetish picture that is probably somewhat too odd for people with a car fetish. Warren Oates, a cult actor, is awesome in this.

 

[jayembee]

That's a good list, I think. Basically, yes, these are pictures I think you could call cult films. Not really huge hits but pictures that did resonate with groups of people. A lot of that list were big deal films for me, the Carpenter stuff, the early Mad Max pictures [...]

The original Mad Max was definitely a cult film. In the US, it pretty much played only in drive-ins. And the reason Warner gave for calling the second one "The Road Warrior" instead of its original Aussie title "Mad Max 2" was because they figured that nobody would know there even was a "Mad Max 1" and maybe wouldn't see the second because they hadn't seen the first.

The Road Warrior, however, was a bona fide hit, and was talked about a lot during that summer of 1982, especially as part of a list of popular SF/F films being released that year (including The Wrath of Khan, Poltergeist, Blade Runner, E.T., and The Thing). So, while I would agree that the first Max was a cult film, the second was not.

 

[tsodcollector]

they have been 1980's teen cult flicks for almost 40 years and disney family cult flicks over the last 40 years until the little mermaid a decade later,here's mine disney/non disney cult flicks to grow into new fans.
return to oz one of disney's cult family movies of the 1980's,that lasted for 4 decades,except the movie never caught on at the box office,overshadowed by other box office blockbusters,it got a new lease on life when it first shown on the disney channel,in the 1990's,then came vhs and dvd sales have gone up over the years,but in 1985 it didn't do well at the box office.

the watcher in the woods,stars david mccallum best known for dramatic and action roles,bette davis,and lynn holly johnson,best known for box office hits such as 1970's sports drama ice castles and the james bond movie for your eyes only.this movie was overshadowed by the miracle on ice,it has to release twice with uncut scenes,it didn't work either.over
For the last 40 years fans have been growing ever since.

little big league
the movie about 12 year old who is hired by the minnesota twins by his grandfather as a manager.this 90's family movie,was over shadowed by the lion king and forrest gump,the movie failed to catch on at the box office,but fans got a whole new lease on life,when it was first released on vhs and dvd,and on tv reruns over the years on showtime and later on tnt.it's been going on for over 30 years.and it's been growing ever since.

the baby sitters club
this movie has lasted for over 3 decades since it's released back in 1995.this movie stars larisa oleynik who was well known at the time starring on the nickelodeon 90's television series,the secret world of alex mack,and rachel leigh cook,who done a movie prior to that she did was disney's tom and huck.this movie was overshadowed by the usual suspects and mortal kombat,the movie failed at the box office,and after that it got a whole new lease on life when it was released on vhs and dvd
and tv reruns over the years and now on line stream.but back in 1995,it did not do well at the box office.

 

[BobO'Link]

Would you consider the work of Stanley Kubrick mainstream or cult?

Mainstream although I consider him to be an auteur. I've seen A Clockwork Orange in "cult" film lists but don't consider it, or any other work from Kubrick, to be a "cult" film though it and Dr. Strangelove come closest in my opinion - but no cigar.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Mainstream although I consider him to be an auteur. I've seen A Clockwork Orange in "cult" film lists but don't consider it, or any other work from Kubrick, to be a "cult" film though it and Dr. Strangelove come closest in my opinion - but no cigar.

Yes, I think A Clockwork Orange is a picture that many people might list as a cult film. It typically, these days, seems either loved or reviled. I have to ask the Kubrick question because for me it is a blind spot I think. Personally, I find him one of the greatest and most important filmmakers of all time and I have watched all his pictures many times and still crave watching them. Dr. Strangelove is a film I have watched so many times I've lost count but I never tire of it and love it every single time. So, I grew up with Kubrick being at the center of the motion picture world and because of that, I have never viewed him as a cult filmmaker. Every film he made was a huge deal to me. The ones I actually saw in a cinema when they were released (sadly just The Shining, Full Metal Jacket, and Eyes Wide Shut) were huge events and I had to stand in long lines to get into them. So, I never thought of his pictures as cult. The blind spot I had was I thought everybody wanted to see his pictures and felt the way I did about them.

I'm well aware that is not true at this stage. Times change and so does what audiences want to see. Released today, I think every one of Kubrick's pictures would be pushed into the cult category because none of them do what 98% of today's theater releases do...hold your hand and be as simple and straightforward as possible.

Also with cult films and filmmakers I think the rule is they set out to make a picture however they want to make it and tell their story, without much or any concern to appealing to the most people possible. I think in this way, Kubrick does have a lot in common with cult filmmakers because he was always just going to tell the story he wanted to tell in exactly the way he wanted to tell it.

 

[BobO'Link]

I think A Clockwork Orange has landed in cult lists simply because it's such an uncomfortable film to view that many just choose to ignore its existence. It's kind of become a "horror" film of a type people try to ignore. That's left it to those who love Kubrick's work and people who search out those type of uncomfortable watches as the primary proponents of the work, making it a little viewed film outside those groups and prime fodder as "cult".

From my general conversations about film with others it seems that the only films most people remember as being from Kubrick, or have even heard of, are 2001: A Space Odyssey and The Shining, both rather high profile films. A few have heard of A Clockwork Orange but don't search it out due to the theme. Others, Full Metal Jacket and usually only know "it's a war movie." Dr. Strangelove being in BW is the primary reason "modern" audiences don't bother - most won't watch a BW film at all *because* it's in BW (and deprive themselves of significant chunks of classic cinema in the process). I mention other Kubrick films and generally get blank stares of nonrecognition.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I think A Clockwork Orange has landed in cult lists simply because it's such an uncomfortable film to view that many just choose to ignore its existence. It's kind of become a "horror" film of a type people try to ignore. That's left it to those who love Kubrick's work and people who search out those type of uncomfortable watches as the primary proponents of the work, making it a little viewed film outside those groups and prime fodder as "cult".

From my general conversations about film with others it seems that the only films most people remember as being from Kubrick, or have even heard of, are 2001: A Space Odyssey and The Shining, both rather high profile films. A few have heard of A Clockwork Orange but don't search it out due to the theme. Others, Full Metal Jacket and usually only know "it's a war movie." Dr. Strangelove being in BW is the primary reason "modern" audiences don't bother - most won't watch a BW film at all *because* it's in BW (and deprive themselves of significant chunks of classic cinema in the process). I mention other Kubrick films and generally get blank stares of nonrecognition.

I've told the story before here but on more than one occasion I have shown or seen 2001 with a group of younger people and wow, they hated it. The first time that happened I was kind of shocked just because I had grown up with and thought of the film for years as a masterpiece. However, the pacing is glacial compared to how they edit and pace pictures now, and the dialogue explains almost nothing to the audience. Today's audience would not tolerate that. It is a story told with images and music mainly with shots that are held for an eternity compared to how a picture is cut now.

The film remains well known but I am not sure it remains well loved as I have seen it on an increasing number of "most overrated" lists.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

A Clockwork Orange has its own issues in today's world. First, it is considered out of step with the times. So, there are people that believe you should never make a film like this that has a rather repulsive character at its center. I do think this would be a picture a lot of backers would want no involvement with now. Alex is a murderer, a rapist, a thug, and all-around criminal.

This is part of what makes it a great film though and in the time period it was made you could make thought provoking pictures that had no 'hero" in them. In fact that was more the idea then, to show a flawed or nasty character and their story arc. Taxi Driver features Travis Bickle, not a hero. Raging Bull features a nasty piece of work in Jake LaMotta. Not sure many people are interested in stories like that anymore that feature a nasty character and that ask you to relate to them and get inside that headspace. People now make the mistake of thinking if that character is at the center of your story then you must be approving of what they do. I think some people made that mistake when these pictures were released but now far more people make it.

Plus, Kubrick told his stories with ambiguity, subtlety, and nuance. None of which are appreciated today when trying to get a picture into multiple cinemas.

 

[TravisR]

Speaking of Kubrick... it's his birthday so David Simon tweeted a link to an interview he did with Criterion a few years ago talking about Paths Of Glory and its influence or relation to some of his work.

David Simon Unravels the Moral Twists of Paths of Glory

The creator of The Wire takes inspiration from the narrative and moral complexity of Stanley Kubrick’s war masterpiece.

www.criterion.com

And for those listening to Tarantino and Roger Avary's The Video Archives podcast, there's an "after show" episode up this week. The regular episodes will come out biweekly but on the "off" weeks, they're planning on putting up shorter discussions of movies.