Flagship receivers = Overpriced?? (1 Viewer)

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Milt is talking about the Sony having 3 DSP's as in digital signal processors, not DSP modes."

Oh

"Those relatively inexpensive 2-channel preamps can very possibly do a better job than the Sony or Denon HT receivers in the analog bypass mode."

I appreciate your opinion Chung. But I beleve that this is one are that the 5800 truly excels. I don't believe that there is a pre/amp under $4,000 that will best the 5800 in Pure Direct mode. With the new DACs in the 5803, IMO it only strengthens my position. The alignment of 8 DACs/channel is something that I thought sounded like voodoo when I first bought my 5800. But I can assure you that I have never listened to as much music as I do now, nor have I enjoyed the diversity of music that I like these days....since I got the 5800. Actually, I'll take that back...there may be just now some choices available that will likely match or beat the sound of the Denon in analog bypass...i.e. the Anthem, the new Rotel, maybe even the Outlaw, we'll see. Until now, there has been no choices other than HT pre/pros at or around $3k.

These companies have just now released pre/pros with the same strengths as the 5800 has had for a year and a half. There is NO pre/pro that can match the abilities of the new Pioneer flagship or the Denon 5803. Some may sound better, but I believe we're talking about the Thetas, Meridians, MC-12s, etc. to sound better.

I do agree that the Sony ES/outboard amplification combo is a great idea for many...however, I don't think this is the reason Milt posted for a discussion like this. I believe that he believes that there is no way in hell the flagship receivers could be worth their price.

Jeremy

 

[Elbert Lee]

I think the original post poses an interesting, yet more frequently asked question in today's Consumer Electronics market. I personally believe that the current state of consumer electronics and, to a lesser extent, traditional audiophiles, has changed dramatically in the past few years for the following reasons:

1) Larger number of consumers in the HT market

2) DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY has influenced the rate at which manufacturers must keep up with the new formats, an increasingly computer educated client base, the additions in surround sound formats, and the demand for solid software engineers in product development.

3) Much larger market awareness and market penetration of audio equipment based on digital surround procession and at home entertainment - SIMPLY PUT - audio is no longer a "specialty" hobby.

There is a market for high end receivers. 8+ years ago, it was nonsensical for companies like Denon, Sony, Yamaha, etc. to spend the time to build such high end receivers and compete with the boutique brands. When DPL was the only surround format, it was easy to for buitique brand manufacturers to focus purely on the fundamental elements of audio (copper chasis, power supplies, high current amps, etc.) In today's market, now that there are already 1 or 2 generations of HT enthusiasts looking to upgrade, it makes sense for companies like Denon, Pioneer, Sony, etc. to spend the time to build higher quality receivers with more of the "fundamentals" that the high end boutique manufacturers employeed in the pass. These companies have the edge to producde these products because, not only is the market and demographic much different than it was before, but because they have the product (software) development muscle to stay on top of the new digital technologies are changing the "fundamentals" of good sound. Sure, many things don't change: solid amplification, a good preamp stage, etc., but it is definitely trickier to integrate thse aspects with the latest in digital surround formats. I've been "unfortunate" enough to be a guinea pig for a B&K pre/pro (a good separates value), but the product had major bugs that needed to be worked out. While customer support was good, they simply couldn't resolve the bugs without more "support" from Motorola.

Ten years ago, to compare the best of receivers (which topped out around $1200), would be laughable. TOday, however, many of the "expensive" parts and quality construction that goes into the higher end separates also go into the high end receiver. (I even have a hard time using the term "high end" with "receiver") However, we have to relinquish some of our prejudices against this new breed of receiver and stop comparing them to "used" or value-based separates. There is a market for these high end separates and, based on how they are designed and built, there is a justification for their price tags. Fortunately, there is generally more flexibility in street prices on these receivers as opposed to new separates. I think it's unfair to compare a NEW FLAGSHIP receiver with more features, to a USED older set of separates with LESS FEATURES and possibly better 2 channel performance, and then discriminate against the receiver for having useless "frills". "DD and DTS" were considered "frills" at one point in time. I firmly believe that one can achieve better 2 channel performance with a used set of separates as opposed to the new Denon AVR 5803.

I think that "traditionalists" have to relinquish their old prejudices against receivers and realize that there is indeed a place and proper price point for a piece like the Denon. My "upgrade" road through receivers, separates, and finally to flagship receiver has made the Denon the perfect choice for me. It's not for everybody, but there really are enough of consumers in the same position that I am and really can appreciate and use a flagship receiver. I've heard comments from Denon and non Denon dealers on how well constructed the 5803 is and are impressed with the way it was built (from the materials, chasis, parts, isolation of its digital and analog circuits, etc.) and have to problem equating its parts, manufacturing and engineering with a high end preamp/processor. (The amp is another matter) Therefore, as a $3000 pre/pro, the 5803 would also be considered a decent value. But, if you are a purist and the idea of a mere "receiver" bothers you, I wouldn't even bother bringing up the idea of a piece like the Denon.

 

[Aslam Imran]

Jeremy

The Sony does not even compare to the feature list of the Denon.

So it does boil down to the feature list. Well maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. For me the sound comes first, two channel before HT and features come last. But then its all in the perspective, isn't it?

Cmon Jeremy, do you really think that the high price of the 5803 has anything to do with the superiority of the components/design used in it, or the lower price of the Outlaw 950 + 770 combo has anything to do with the inferiority of the components/design used in it? We all very well know what the cost drivers are in bringing a 5803 to the market versus that for the Outlaw combo.

I think the biggest price driver here is the snob appeal of owning a Flagship, but believe it or not no one would accept it. I guess the Denon marketing guys have done a fine job and deserve commendation.

 

[Aslam Imran]

Anyway, if you think money=quality we'll all be buying Bose

I couldn't have put it better. Its all attributed to how good the marketing guys are, and everybody here agrees that Bose has the best marketing. Bose spends more $$ on marketing than the top four speakers companies spend on R&D, COMBINED!!! No wonder the marketing guys are paid much more than us engineering folks:frowning:

 

[MiltK]

Jeremy,
I think you're fanaticism about flagship receivers caused you to attack my comments and me personally without thinking about what I'm trying to say...

"What other "middle-of-the-road" receiver you know of has THREE DSPs..."
THREE DSPs...Damn, look out HT fans, count 'em THREE DSPs!
Milt, I believe the cheapest of the Denons has 7 or 8 DSPs as well as DPLII, DTS, DD, etc.
Milt is talking about the Sony having 3 DSP's as in digital signal processors, not DSP modes.

Thanks Chung for clarifying what I meant. I didn't realize the 3 DSPs meant 3 DSP modes to some people, especially self-proclaimed "experts" like Jeremy. It's obvious I'm not the only one that needs to do a bit more research as well...
Also my main point is really about questioning the overall VALUE of a $3500 flagship receiver rather than attacking those who have bought one. People should realize there are much more cost-effective solutions out there with little or no compromise in performance rather than listen to salesmen and self-proclaimed "experts" stating that a flagship receiver will send you to audio nirvana. So far, I have not seen a compelling comparison of features that offer "real-world" advantages that the Denon flagship has over the Sony DA5ES to justify the additional $2700 cost and make it a better pre/pro. Can anyone here list some "real-world" advantages that can impact sonic performance? And no, I'm not talking about THX2 certification or Dolby headphone capability...
This issue has really been beaten down. There really is no point trying to get people to look at value objectively once they plunk down a lot of cash for something - subsequent discussions evolve into battles of justification, which can get a tad emotional.

 

[Aslam Imran]

Jeremy:

You obviously have some learning to do about HT, 2 channel music listening, and the gear provided to do both.

And of course, if even that fails ridicule the guy to make him look stupid.

 

[Aslam Imran]

This issue has really been beaten down. There really is no point trying to get people to look at value objectively once they plunk down a lot of cash for something - subsequent discussions evolve into battles of justification, which can get a tad emotional.

Aptly put Milt. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Jack F]

While a Sony receiver as pre-amp may sound good to some, it might also sound absolutely horrendous to others like the highly acclaimed TS-9000ES did to myself and other family members who had the displeasure of listening to it.
Using the same Amp, (Adcom GTP-6000) and Speakers, (Klipsch Legends KLF-30's) we tested the following -
1. Adcom GTP-600 PreAmp
2. Sony TAE-9000 "
3. B&K Reference 20 "
4. Pioneer Elite VSX-36TX Receiver
5. Denon 3801 "
6. Denon 5800 "
The Sony was the worst of the bunch. It never sounded good for a second. Tinny, harsh and lifeless. Maybe the 555ES or whatever sounds better, but to assume that it will sound good to everyone with their particular Speakers and Amp is totally absurd. Maybe matched up with warmer or really bass'y speakers it would be OK. Maybe NOT.
My Brother and I both have 5800's sitting in our racks. Before purchasing them we would have never imagined spending that kind of money on a receiver. Afterwards, we could never imagine owning less, and especially anything Sony in the Pre-Amp or Amp end of the soundfield.
Maybe the Outlaw 950 will change that. Maybe it will sound better than a Sony 555?? or a Denon 3801/2/3.
Don't fool yourself into thinking the Prestage has little or no effect on sound quality. In my opinion - it is far more responsible for sound signature than the Amps.
Why is it that so many people start these attacks on the flagships? They make absolutely no sense to me at all. Is it to justify their decision to spend $3,000.00 less? Does it somehow help to make them think they have equal sound quality from their $700.00 receiver and Amp combo?
When a bunch of former Flagship owners post threads like this it may hold some water. People should pay attention then. Until then, why don't people just enjoy what they can afford and stop trying to justify their purchase by attacking the better things they could have purchased with more money.
I'm not trying to say that more money always buys better sound, but when you are talking Denon, Onkyo, HK etc., it almost always does.
When we purchased our 5800's, the only other pieces we were considering were Pre-Pro's that happened to be running in the $5,000.00 price range. So, to us, the $3,000.00 5800 was a steal. We saved $2,000.00 and got the built in Amps for free. While they might not be the best Amps out there, they sound amazing with our efficient Klipsch tower speakers.
Sorry if any part of this post upsets anyone. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. It's nice when that opinion is based on fact and or real life experiences.
Like it or not - you now have mine.
Jack

 

[Larry B]

Jack:

While a Sony receiver as pre-amp may sound good to some, it might also sound absolutely horrendous to others like the highly acclaimed TS-9000ES did to myself and other family members who had the displeasure of listening to it...It never sounded good for a second. Tinny, harsh and lifeless.

Amen, brother.
Larry

 

[Jack F]

Also, in this industry/hobby, buyers remorse is common and widespread.

Go to Audio Review or any review site and see what Denon 5800 or other Flagship owners have to say. How many people have returned a 5800?

I personally would express my honest opinion if I didn't love mine. And at $3,000.00+ it had to sound pretty darn good, which it does.

 

[Aslam Imran]

When we purchased our 5800's, the only other pieces we were considering were Pre-Pro's that happened to be running in the $5,000.00 price range. So, to us, the $3,000.00 5800 was a steal. We saved $2,000.00 and got the built in Amps for free. While they might not be the best Amps out there, they sound amazing with our efficient Klipsch tower speakers.

I agree with that. A year or two back there were not much choice in terms of good HT preamps that supported all the formats with the nifty features of the 5800. I never questioned that the 5800 sounded good. It is a darn good preamp with fairly good amps, but to think that this is true today or will be in the future is absurd. Just because Outlaw sells direct and are able to pass on the savings of direct internet sales to the end consumer doesn't mean that they are using inferior components in their products. This is what everyone thought of Dell compared to IBM when they came out with their first PCs. But we dont talk about that anymore. Even though I haven't heard the Outlaw 950 I could still believe that it could compete with the 5800s preamp in terms of sheer sound quality. If someone says that a $900 preamp cant compete with their $3000 + preamp they better back it up with more than just 'its absurd to think that a $900 preamp will sound better than a $3000 receiver preamp'. This to me is totally insane. How can the 5800 owners think that their preamps sound better than the 950 when infact they have not done any comparisons in their homes. So now its my turn to throw out their 'circumstantial evidence'.

And no one ever told that a $750 sony preamp would sound better than the 5800, or the Lexicons, or the Meridians etc.. as someone earlier extrapolated. All we were discussing here were other viable options that were cheaper than the Flagships and that gave more bang for the buck, thats all. Why do the Flagship owners have to get all emotional and extrapolate/exaggerate just to make the other side look stupid.

So, guys get a grip on your emotions and take it easy. Not everyone is wise enough to make the right decisions everytime no matter how hard we try to justify it later on.

 

[Aslam Imran]

And at $3,000.00+ it had to sound pretty darn good, which it does.

The key is 'had to' which is what Milt earlier pointed out.

 

[Gary Hensley]

Jeremy,
Even if a hardware upgrade is necessary I still have a current feature set receiver for ~2500.00. Hopefully it will be software only but again Onkyo has come through with the upgrades. I seriously doubt Denon would have if not for the 989/9.1/RDC-7
All the high-end receivers are great units. Just guess it comes down to personal preference

 

[Ricky T]

Part of a flagship receiver's price includes items not available in most lower model receivers and prepros:

- AC3 demodulator for Laser Discs

- phono input

- more source inputs

- more digital inputs

- 3 component video inputs

- upgradeability

Like it or not, the manufacturer included these items and they add incrementally to the total cost.

Yes, I suppose a manufacturer like Denon could have made a Denon 5800-X and take out these features, but it is more economical to just have one flagship performer....

 

[John Morris]

My 2c...

I happen to agree with previously stated comments, negative ones, on the Sony 9K pre/pro. I haven't heard one since the last, final(?), software upgrade but am guessing that the tonal quality of the unit hasn't changed.

As for current feature set receivers which sound good as both receiver and then as a pre/pro, I'd recommend the Sherwood Newcastle R-983. You can find them brand new in box for around $1200... a stone cold bargain!

 

[MiltK]

John,

Would you say that the Sherwood's pre/pro section and features is comparable to the Denon's at $1200? If not, is it ~$2300 less of a receiver?

MiltK

 

[MiltK]

Jack F,

No one is attacking the flagship receivers or their owners. We're just discussing the value of them compared to other much less costly solutions and still getting the same sonic performance.

Ricky T,

Part of a flagship receiver's price includes items not available in most lower model receivers and prepros:

- AC3 demodulator for Laser Discs

- phono input

- more source inputs

- more digital inputs

- 3 component video inputs

- upgradeability

I have to go check the manual but I know for sure that the Sony DA5ES has a phono input and is upgradeable via it's RS-232 port like other receivers (include their own TA-9000ES model). Also, it has more than enough source and digital inputs for me (DVD, tape, CD/SACD, comp. video, satellite, etc.).

 

[Mike Veroukis]

My whole argument is based on the merits of the Sony ES as a standalone pre/pro for music (and for powering the surrounds in HT). By adding external amplification, you are bypassing what has been traditionally perceived as Sony's weakest point(their amps) while taking advantage of the fabulous DSPs and unsurpassed flexibility of their pre/pro section (IMO better that the Denon, B&K, etc.).

You hurt your own argument here. Why would any company build a receiver with such an outstanding pre/pro section and couple it with a weak amplifier section? Does Sony have two levels of quality within a single product? If so they are seriously shooting themselves in the foot. No, I would imagine that the quality of the unit is the same throughout and if the amp section is not as good as that of a Denon's then neither would the pre/pro section.

The other thing to consider is why do the ultra high-end systems have LESS features then the affordable units? More features means more circuits and that means more noise. It also means more things to break down. Features are nice but most of the time they are unused (like the 40+ DSP programs that some Yamahas come with).

Bottom line is, the Sony must be lacking something for it to cost so much less. Perhaps you need to take each of the units discussed here and strip them down and compare individual components.

However, after reading this thread I do wish that my low-end Yamaha HTR-5450 had pre-amp outputs so I could use an external stereo amp. It's weird that only the higher end Yamahas have the pre-amp outputs.

- Mike

 

[Ricky T]

Milt,

Most things have enough inputs for me, too. However, some people have 9, 10+ components. Also, by upgradeability, I mean to new formats like DPL2 and DTS-ES discrete (which is what the $50 Onkyo upgrade did for the 989, Integra 9.1 receivers, and Integra RDC7 prepro). The Sony's can do this.

 

[JackS]

The only problem using receivers as pre-amps is the unknown factor of the pre section in the receiver one may be interested in buying. I have the feeling that the pre-amp in receivers can vary widely from brand to brand, and also from the same model of the same brand. The primary design of all receivers were never intended for this purpose. Anyone interested in using a receiver as a preamp should look in the middle of the road receivers with MSRP's of 1k or over to have a chance at a successful amp/receiver combo. In past years I have owned seperates in music systems, and decided on the receiver/amp combination for a dual purpose HT/Music system. If you get it right, the results can be excellent. My choice a few years ago was the Sony 777es, so here's a rec. It would be interesting to try the DA5, and I urge you to do so. I also agree that with a little luck the flagships can be equalled or bested. Prove or dissprove by a simple listen. Don't take my word or anyone elses. There are decisions in life that we must make ourselves. Use the opinions of others sparingly ,including mine. Best of luck, Jack